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KenPruitt

I Am Sorry, But....

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This entire idea that the Islamic world and the Western world are going to understand each other is silly, nonsensical, and utterly impossible. Both parties have utterly abandoned reason, and thus dialogue is rendered useless.

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I agree, we need a balance of power as at the moment the non Muslims world pretty much holds the Muslim world at ransom stating do as we say or we will throw a hissy fit and plan to get violent by means of sending thousands of heroes armed to their teeth to kill your people who dare fight back.

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This entire idea that the Islamic world and the Western world are going to understand each other is silly, nonsensical, and utterly impossible. Both parties have utterly abandoned reason, and thus dialogue is rendered useless.

 

From where I am standing it is your post that is unreasonable.

 

I would suggest you are probably basing your assumption of the garbage churned out by the media.  The media is a client of Murdock and his ilk and will turn any trick to make a profit for their boss ... have a look at what they did with phone tapping.

 

The media enjoys promoting simplistic one liners in order to create the illusion that you must have something to fear ... even if that fear is fear itself.

 

I see no such issue.  In fact I see the exact opposite.  I see people working together to overcome the very stereotypes you apparently are promoting.  

 

That bad things go on in the world is accepted ... but that does not mean God has given up on humanity.  

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It does not mean that if there is a clash in two religions then they will fight each other it means that they are not capable to settle down the matter and they require third party mediation. 

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I disagree with every statement on here except that of brother johnford.  See I am (al hamd'Allah) part of a group of individuals rising up out of the Bible belt coming to see the truth of Islam.  Allah (swt) has an answer for everything and the sooner we, as humans, come to realize that the better off we will all be.  Truth be told before I became Muslim I wanted to see Islam wiped off the face of the planet and a religious war between Christians and Muslims, fact.  And there are more like I was but al hamd'Allah there are more like me that have come to realize the truth and many of us know and understand these people.  Most of the ones I have talked to not only understand these people but are well educated in the Bible as well as Islam. 

 

You see the evangelical group is the power behind the lobby groups in the U.S. right now and unfortunately for them people like myself and the founder of Muslims4Liberty are from that group.  We know what they are going to say before they say it.  I believe that Allah (swt) is allowing more of us to see the truth so that we can help in bridging this gap and if you look outside the mainstream media you will find that there is a lot of dialogue going on between people of this nature.  To the diehard evangelical Christians in the U.S. you cannot stand a foreigner in front of them and tell them something because they will not listen.  Truth be told many of them will not listen if the individual isn't white and they have often used that excuse too when presented with the fact that many Muslims are not foreign born but from the U.S.  But, when they are presented with not one not two but a myriad of anglo-Americans that are becoming Muslim who came from the same upbringing as them then they have issue and no longer can they say this is something foreign.  No longer can they say well this is what the Bible says because we know the Bible as well as them, or in the case of many of us, more so. 

 

The bridge is being made by Allah (swt) and soon the U.S. and the so called Western World will be left with no excuse for not accepting Islam other than it isn't the religion of their fathers.  The days of being able to claim ignorance is vanishing quickly

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No, I base this on my own experiences with Western culture and my own personal interactions with Muslims.

 

The fact of the matter is, friendly relations between the two is impossible. And in trying to refute me, you actually proved my point for me. Read closely what you all typed, and see if you can spot the problem. If I have to point it out, you won't like it at all.

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No, I base this on my own experiences with Western culture and my own personal interactions with Muslims.

 

The fact of the matter is, friendly relations between the two is impossible. And in trying to refute me, you actually proved my point for me. Read closely what you all typed, and see if you can spot the problem. If I have to point it out, you won't like it at all.

 

Your location is a dead give away for me.  Just like others in the 901 you think you can understand Islam but the fact of the matter is you likely know only what you have seen in the news.  Meanwhile individuals such as myself continue to rise up from the Bible belt and continue to bridge the gap.  And please do not give me this personal interaction with Muslim stuff because that means very little.  The fact of the matter is that much of your interactions were likely either with individuals not even from this country or with individuals who think that one race is superior. 

 

I know the rhetoric that would generally come out of Memphis.  Personally I would love for you to continue as you can prove my point for me.  And please don't try and refute the Memphis comment because we both know that Bartlett is no longer an actual city anymore than Germantown, Frasier, or Cordova.  See I got my Christian indoctrination just north of you (straight up hwy51) in a little town called Munford.  I attended Crichton College in Memphis before it closed and became Victory College forcing me to transfer down to Jackson,MS where I attended Belhaven University.  Before I became Muslim I was taking all the classes I needed in order to transfer to a seminary out of South Carolina. 

 

Back to point (entonces) though I would absolutely love for you to continue but be mindful of the approach you use because forum rules are forum rules.  

Edited by abdullahfath

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^^^

 

You've made so many presumptions based on so little, and you wonder why I say that friendly Western/Islamic relations are impossible.

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I have something for you that is not a presumption.  I gave you the chance to continue, to say what you wanted to say and yet you did not.  Fact

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Very well, but remember; you asked for this. Do not blame me if this offends you or makes you angry. Since I am Western myself, I'll start with the West.

 

Rational discourse is all but gone in the Western world. The media, particularly in America, is full of incomprehensible shouting matches that they present as "Explosive Interviews". Pick a topic, it doesn't matter. Politics, economics, sports, celebrity gossip, all of it is delivered in the same fashion... unless of course both the interviewer and the interviewee agree. The ability to have discourse within the Western world without it devolving into a disrespectful shouting match is all but gone. Why? Because people have been bombarded with this nonsense for so long, this is how discourse is had now in the West. Only a notable few do not engage in this sort of practice. The West shouts/guns down all opposing opinions, and has absolutely no stake in understanding their opposition. Let me prove this to you undeniably. Let's take the Islamophobes for instance. Common sense tells everyone that if you are going to oppose a doctrine or a group of people, then, if you're going to have any chance at success, you must familiarize yourself with the people and doctrines you oppose. This is common sense. Thus, common sense dictates that every Islamophobe should have a copy of the Qur'an on their bookshelf, and should know it well enough that they can cite, from memory and at any time, passages that support their case. For instance, I can cite, from memory, 4:29 which forbids suicide, and 4:89-90 which disproves the claim that Islam advocates killing apostates.

 

So, common sense dictates that the Islamophobes must be able to do the same thing. Right? This isn't controversial in the least, but every Muslim knows that this just isn't the case. Why? Because, despite the West's insistence in constantly meddling in world affairs, they are incredibly ignorant of said world affairs. Why? Because they don't care. Their opposition isn't Islam at all. The truth of the matter is the source of the anti-Islamic propaganda is the same as the source that said that the German Kaiser was Satan and that America was God (this was actual World War 1 propaganda). What does the Qur'an say about X and Y? Who cares! That completely misses the point. The point is, how can we justify the agenda we're not telling people about? The truth is, all of this is based on one very simple proposition; "To export is to enrich a nation, to import is to impoverish a nation." That is what this is about. It is economics. The Islamophobia is just a cover for the enactment of this principle. The West, as such, has no stake in what the Qur'an actually says or teaches. That is to say; they couldn't care less what the Qur'an says.

 

The Muslims, however, so blinded by this assault on their faith that they completely missed the point, and in their general distrust of non-Muslims, they have instead referred to the poisonous words of self-interested Imams and Mullahs, who not only have a prestige that they quite frankly do not deserve, but are, more often than not, far from qualified to speak on the topics that they generally speak on. How many Islamic scholars have proposed Islam as an alternative to Capitalism or Communism, for instance? Because of this, the Muslims are missing incredibly vital pieces to the puzzle. They don't know the real aims of the West, and as such, they are at a natural disadvantage when they attempt to engage in dialogue. The dialogue, if there are any, proceeds "according to plan", i.e., how the West had wanted them to go. The West wants the debate to be about Islam, not the economic philosophy guiding their actions. They put these "scholars" (that is in quotation for a reason), to argue against Islam, while the poor Muslim, economically illiterate and ignorant of his opposition, is forced to fight back exactly how the West wants him to.

 

The West picked your opponent, decided the terms of the battle, and like a fool you charged in screaming Allahu Akbar without the slightest clue as to what you're actually fighting against. This is why friendly interaction between the Western and Islamic world is impossible. Not only are friendly interactions counter to the West's economic interests, the Muslim will not abandon the religious debate long enough to truly educate themselves on their opponent. But, maybe I am wrong in this characterization of Muslims. Maybe you actually do care.


If you really care, and you want a real intellectual weapon to use against these people; a weapon that will cut through their nonsense without fail, then send me a PM on here, and I'll see what I can do to help you out.

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It does not mean that if there is a clash in two religions then they will fight each other it means that they are not capable to settle down the matter and they require third party mediation. 

Why?

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I have some understanding of your frustration but ...

 

 

Rational discourse is all but gone in the Western world.

 

How can you possibly justify such a sweeping statement?  Gone?  Where is it gone?  What has replaced that which is gone?

 

You are simply watching too much TV ... stop it ... you appear to believe that what comes out of the media is reality. 

 

 

Common sense tells everyone that if you are going to oppose a doctrine or a group of people, then, if you're going to have any chance at success, you must familiarize yourself with the people and doctrines you oppose. This is common sense.

 

There is nothing 'common' about sense ... if anything it is really 'uncommon'.  

 

 

The point is, how can we justify the agenda we're not telling people about?

 

I see ... it's all about economics.  Is it?

 

Take the scales from you eyes.  We, you and me and the rest of us, are 'told' by the media that it is 'all about economics'.  But such claims are short hand for justifying inequitable distribution of the worlds wealth.  And, of course, those in power could not care less about the Qur'an or the Bible or ethics in general ... but we already know this so what you are railing against is not new ... both the Qur'an and the Bible warn about the practices of the rich, both materially and spiritually.

 

 

The West wants the debate to be about Islam, not the economic philosophy guiding their actions.

 

... and your reference is .... ?  Something from the media no doubt.

 

The West could not care less about Islam as long as it gets to do what it whats to do which is make more money for the already rich and powerful ... but, Hey, what's changed?  But there are Muslims in the same position don't forget so generalizations are dangerously made.  But just because the world is not turning out how you think it should be does not mean there can be no dialogue between different religions.  

 

Your thesis appears to be that because the West is behaving badly the East should so the same but with bells attached.  Mimicking others is the road to perdition ...      

 

The intellectual weapon you seek is lying within you ... it is realizing you want to mimic others ... that is the danger ... that is the only danger.  The danger to Islam is to mimic the West.  That is what the enemies of Islam want ... they want Muslims to mimic the West's own insane ideas and beliefs ... they want Islam to join with them in some unholy dance.

 

And that is what you advocate without understanding why ... you are actually drawn into that unholy dance and want others to follow.

 

Please read Said Nursi and M. Fethullum Gulen who both hail from secular Turkey and know the way around the intellectual and atheist world of the secular West.   

 

Peace

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I have some understanding of your frustration but ...

 

 

 

How can you possibly justify such a sweeping statement?  Gone?  Where is it gone?  What has replaced that which is gone?

 

You are simply watching too much TV ... stop it ... you appear to believe that what comes out of the media is reality. 

 

 

 

There is nothing 'common' about sense ... if anything it is really 'uncommon'.  

 

 

 

I see ... it's all about economics.  Is it?

 

Take the scales from you eyes.  We, you and me and the rest of us, are 'told' by the media that it is 'all about economics'.  But such claims are short hand for justifying inequitable distribution of the worlds wealth.  And, of course, those in power could not care less about the Qur'an or the Bible or ethics in general ... but we already know this so what you are railing against is not new ... both the Qur'an and the Bible warn about the practices of the rich, both materially and spiritually.

 

 

 

... and your reference is .... ?  Something from the media no doubt.

 

The West could not care less about Islam as long as it gets to do what it whats to do which is make more money for the already rich and powerful ... but, Hey, what's changed?  But there are Muslims in the same position don't forget so generalizations are dangerously made.  But just because the world is not turning out how you think it should be does not mean there can be no dialogue between different religions.  

 

Your thesis appears to be that because the West is behaving badly the East should so the same but with bells attached.  Mimicking others is the road to perdition ...      

 

The intellectual weapon you seek is lying within you ... it is realizing you want to mimic others ... that is the danger ... that is the only danger.  The danger to Islam is to mimic the West.  That is what the enemies of Islam want ... they want Muslims to mimic the West's own insane ideas and beliefs ... they want Islam to join with them in some unholy dance.

 

And that is what you advocate without understanding why ... you are actually drawn into that unholy dance and want others to follow.

 

Please read Said Nursi and M. Fethullum Gulen who both hail from secular Turkey and know the way around the intellectual and atheist world of the secular West.   

 

Peace

 

Actually, you personify my frustrations. Every answer you have given is demonstrably false, and if followed, lead you to the same place that you're trying to get away from. 

 

1) How can I justify such a sweeping statement? Look at the response to the media, which hosts these shouting matches, and look at the way people who watch the media conduct themselves. This is easily done by simply going to YouTube, looking up some news clips, and reading the comments. The majority of those comments are from Westerners. 

 

2) It is all about economics, and your cry that the media wants it to be about economics is false. Every time the media deals with the Islamic world, never is it on economics. It is either about the religion of Islam, or asking whether or not the wars are justified. Economic philosophy is never discussed. And as for your claim that this is just shorthand for justifying the inequitable distribution of the word wealth, if I follow, in my head, every possible economic system you could advocate to replace the current systems, you would be right where we are now, if not worse. The only difference between your system and theirs is you call yours Islam (and actually, it isn't Islam at all). It does not matter if one calls it the government instituting the system Islamic, Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, or even Satanic. Capitalism is still Capitalism, Socialism is still Socialism, and Nonsense is still Nonsense, and denying the laws of economics has the same consequences regardless of what you call the system. 

 

3) My Thesis, as you put it, is simply this; the Qur'an may be, as it claims to be, complete, but you are not. You lack the tools needed to understand your own system, and you wonder why the West is knocking hells into you both on the battlefield and in the intellectual sphere. I don't advocate mimicking anyone; you're already doing that, as I've shown already. 

 

I tell you what; since you appear to be so confident that you understand your system, I have a little challenge for you in the form of a questionnaire. If you can complete my challenge, and score an 3/5 on this little questionnaire of mine, I'll take back everything I've said and admit I was wrong. I will warn you however; the answers are not obvious.

 

1) What is a Religious Prohibition, and how does it differ from a standard government prohibition?

 

2) Does the Qur'an forbid interest lending?

 

3) What does the Qur'an say about compulsion in religion, and what inferences regarding public policy can be drawn from it?

 

4) What does the Qur'an say is the best way to spread belief and morality?

 

5) What does the Qur'an say about theft, and what inferences can be made from it as regards public policy?

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You intellectualization is a classic example of the very things you are railing against ... you have been taught well by Western rationalism.

 

Off course you will see everything that confronts your entrenched belief system as 'demonstrably false' ... nothing new here ... you follow in the great tradition of the philosophers who do little more than talk to each other about abstract ideas all of which are designed to support their own inflated egos ... they essentially have nothing to offer other a better looking and bigger BIG BROTHER house.

 

I am not interested in you inane questions ... I can get any number of those through academia ... and it's all been said before which really makes the whole exercise boring ... so you will have to excuse me ... I have better things to do than to turn tricks for you.

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"You intellectualization is a classic example of the very things you are railing against ... you have been taught well by Western rationalism."

 

Is further proof needed that friendly Western/Islamic relations are impossible at this point?

 

"Off course you will see everything that confronts your entrenched belief system as 'demonstrably false' ... nothing new here ... you follow in the great tradition of the philosophers who do little more than talk to each other about abstract ideas all of which are designed to support their own inflated egos ... they essentially have nothing to offer other a better looking and bigger BIG BROTHER house."

 

And you base this on... what? The fact that I actually tried helping you people? You have reminded me quite forcefully of the reason why I once told myself that I would never waste my time with Muslims ever again.

 

"I am not interested in you inane questions ... I can get any number of those through academia ... and it's all been said before which really makes the whole exercise boring ... so you will have to excuse me ... I have better things to do than to turn tricks for you."

 

And with this, you formally renounced any claim that you had to the title of Muslim. No Muslims would consider direct questions about what the Qur'an says to be inane questions. To consider it such, in any circumstance, is to show not only extreme disrespect to the Qur'an, but it also shows an inflated ego that needs to be put in check. I hate to break this to you kid (not really), but if you can't even handle me (you clearly can't), you might as well just become a stoic, and permanently dismiss yourself from world/religious affairs. 

 

You are not equipped for the kind of work you have chosen to undertake. You lack both the knowledge, and the discipline needed to properly learn your craft. 

Edited by KenPruitt

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I have to apologize firstly Ken as I misunderstood you. 

 

With that said I have to say that most Muslims realize that the war against the Middle East is primarily about finances.  Those who don't simply don't understand the mindset of this country.  The only way to fight the vilifying of Islam though is with truth.   When the majority of the populace is at least aware of what Islam is truly all about they will begin to question the real reason that the U.S. is expanding its presence in the Middle East.  Many are already starting to do this as you yourself are showing.  As long as there is a villain to turn the Americans attention to the populace will not question what is going on.  

 

There is a lot that can be said about American finances that to me personally is just plain exhaustive.  For instance if you walk up to a child and tell them okay here is a paper, there is nothing that you can get back for it but it is worth this much the child will understand that it is pretend.  Why don't we?  The credit bureau and the very concept of credit is what is bringing down the American government.   As far as American foreign policy and practices its not complicated for anyone that has studied history. Look up the history of empires and how they operate.  This also works for the timeline of America as well as its future.  We will collapse from internal fighting as the military and the politicians begin fighting each other.  Our finances will be exhausted but the country leaders will do whatever they can to try and entertain the masses and keep them fed in order to keep them in line.  It easier now to watch television and sports than ever before. Access to foodstamps and wic is getting easier with each passing year.  All we are actually missing presently is the infighting between politicians and military.  Also there is likely to be an uprise by the poor and neighboring foreigners who are ill-treated by a country that benefits from its work force.

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No Muslims would consider direct questions about what the Qur'an says to be inane questions.

 

It's 'inane' because the only reason you are asking questions is to generate a intellectual debate ... you are really not interested in considering possible answers ... you only ask to enhance your ego and then when you do get challenged you bring out the wounded victim image and go on the attack ...

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It's 'inane' because the only reason you are asking questions is to generate a intellectual debate ... you are really not interested in considering possible answers ... you only ask to enhance your ego and then when you do get challenged you bring out the wounded victim image and go on the attack ...

 

No. I asked because I wanted to see how well you actually understand your material. I'm convinced, until you prove to me otherwise, that you do not understand the Qur'an, and thereby do not understand Islam.

 

 

I have to apologize firstly Ken as I misunderstood you. 

 

With that said I have to say that most Muslims realize that the war against the Middle East is primarily about finances.  Those who don't simply don't understand the mindset of this country.  The only way to fight the vilifying of Islam though is with truth.   When the majority of the populace is at least aware of what Islam is truly all about they will begin to question the real reason that the U.S. is expanding its presence in the Middle East.  Many are already starting to do this as you yourself are showing.  As long as there is a villain to turn the Americans attention to the populace will not question what is going on.  

 

There is a lot that can be said about American finances that to me personally is just plain exhaustive.  For instance if you walk up to a child and tell them okay here is a paper, there is nothing that you can get back for it but it is worth this much the child will understand that it is pretend.  Why don't we?  The credit bureau and the very concept of credit is what is bringing down the American government.   As far as American foreign policy and practices its not complicated for anyone that has studied history. Look up the history of empires and how they operate.  This also works for the timeline of America as well as its future.  We will collapse from internal fighting as the military and the politicians begin fighting each other.  Our finances will be exhausted but the country leaders will do whatever they can to try and entertain the masses and keep them fed in order to keep them in line.  It easier now to watch television and sports than ever before. Access to foodstamps and wic is getting easier with each passing year.  All we are actually missing presently is the infighting between politicians and military.  Also there is likely to be an uprise by the poor and neighboring foreigners who are ill-treated by a country that benefits from its work force.

 

I tell you what. Since you (unlike some people here) actually care somewhat, I am going to post the (in?)famous reading list here. This list assumes that the Qur'an and the Bible are already on your bookshelf. Books in bold are of special importance to Muslims. Warning: some of the titles listed may offend you. If it does, I do not care

 

"The Theory of Money and Credit", "Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis", "Human Action: A Treatise on Economics", "Theory and History: An Interpretation of Social and Economic Evolution" all by Ludwig von Mises.

 

"Man, Economy, and State with Power and Market", "What Has the Government Done to Our Money, and the Case for a 100% Gold Dollar", "Wall-Street, Banks, and American Foreign Policy", "Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature", "The Betrayal of the American Right", "The Mystery of Banking", "An Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought vol. I&II" all by Murray N. Rothbard.

 

"No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority", "The Unconstitutionality of Slavery", all by Lysander Spooner.

 

"Economics in One Lesson", "Time Will Run Back", "The Failure of the 'New Economics'", by Henry Hazlitt

 

"The Bastiat Collection" this is a collection of everything Frederic Bastiat ever wrote, and all of it is important.

 

"Qur'an, Hadith, and Islam" by Dr. Rashad Khalifi. 

 

"Islam Without Extremes: The Muslim Case for Liberty" by Mustafa Akyol. 

 

"The Criminals of Islam" by Shabbir Ahmed.

 

"Deep Freeze: Iceland's Economic Collapse" by Phillip Bagus and David Howden

 

"Explaining Postmodernism: Skepticism and Socialism from Rousseau to Foucault", "Defending Shylock: Productive Work in Financial Markets", by Stephen R.C. Hicks.

 

"America's Second Crusade" by William Henry Chamberlin

 

"How Diplomats Make War" by Francis Nelson

 

"Back Door to War: The Roosevelt Foreign Policy, 1933-1941" by Charles Callan Tansill.

 

"The God of the Machine" by Isabel Patterson.

 

"Capital and Interest" by Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk.

 

"Principles of Economics" by Carl Menger. 

 

"The Theory of Collective Bargaining", "The Theory of Idle Resources", "The Economics of the Color Bar", by W.H. Hutt. 

 

"The Theory of Education in the United States" by Albert J. Nock

 

Now, I am going to sit back and wait for the insults, warnings from the admins, and the possible threats of violence for this list. 

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Shabbir Ahmed is questionable as he himself said

 

And Dr Rashad is recorded as having made some very blasphemous statements in his time.

 

I will look into the others though, insha'Allah.  when I get the money to do as so

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Shabbir Ahmed is questionable as he himself said

 

And Dr Rashad is recorded as having made some very blasphemous statements in his time.

 

I will look into the others though, insha'Allah.  when I get the money to do as so

 

The majority of these books, if you don't object to reading a PDF, can be found for free from their respective publishers. The very vast majority of the books listed, and more besides, can be found here under the literature tab.

 

www.mises.org

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Well then I will definitely look them up, if you could direct link them to this page or private message me with those pdf files minus the two I mentioned.  Also, on a slightly different note.  If you understand Islam then why not be Muslim?  Unless of course your understanding of Islam is strictly limited to English translations of the Qur'an (I would venture to guess either Pickthall or Yusuf Ali)

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Well then I will definitely look them up, if you could direct link them to this page or private message me with those pdf files minus the two I mentioned.  Also, on a slightly different note.  If you understand Islam then why not be Muslim?  Unless of course your understanding of Islam is strictly limited to English translations of the Qur'an (I would venture to guess either Pickthall or Yusuf Ali)

 

I'll PM you the literature page where you can find the books. You'll have to individually search out each book, but all of them can be found there. 

 

As for understandings of Islam being limited with regards to English translations (or to any translation for that matter), a little thought (and a quote from the Qur'an) shows why this doesn't pan out.

 

Any translation worth the name must accurately reflect the meaning and intention of the original text. The wording may be slightly different from translation to translation, but if it is indeed a translation, then the message and the intent will be there. If the message and/or the intent of the original is lost through translation, then the new text is not a translation at all.

 

If the Yusef Ali English translation of the Qur'an, for instance, doesn't accurately reflect the Word of God as depicted in the Qur'an, for whatever reason, the Muslims are obligated, in the name of Allah, to call for a revision of the text, if not an outright recall of it. But, this has other problems. If the Yusef Ali translation of the Qur'an doesn't accurately represent Islam, then God's word has been falsified; a conclusion which a Muslim, if he believes that his Qur'an is indeed the pure, infallible word of God Almighty, cannot accept, for the Qur'an says quite explicitly that God will protect it from falsification. 

 

You might respond that the Qur'an cannot be read in any language other than Arabic; it can only be interpreted. It is a sufficient response to point out the following; if something cannot be read, it cannot be interpreted. Period. If you don't believe me, put on a blindfold, have someone hand you a piece of paper, and try to INTERPRET said piece of paper. If you respond that you cannot interpret it because you cannot read it, then you've seen how silly that argument is.

 

And while there is nothing wrong with learning Arabic so you can read the original Arabic Qur'an, this is hardly necessary. In fact, even the Qur'an tells you the explicit reason why the Qur'an is in Arabic. Surah 41:44 of the Qur'an: 

 

"And if We had made it a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained in detail [in our language]? Is it a foreign [recitation] and an Arab [messenger]?" Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place."

 

The part in bold is a dead giveaway. The reason the Qur'an was in Arabic is because of the particular prophet (Muhammad), and the particular region in which it was given (the Middle-East, where Arabic is the dominate language, or at least it was back then. I don't know about now.) No where does the Qur'an say that translation falsifies the Qur'an, nor does it say that the Arabic language is perfect (an idea I've heard some Muslims put forth). It says it was revealed in Arabic so that those then hearing it would take heed.

 

It was more of a common-sense thing than anything else.

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And similarly anyone who has ever studied foreign language can understand why a translation would be flawed or lacking.  Most words in English have a singular meaning, other languages are not as such.  Even in Spanish there are words that have several meaning, this is more so in Arabic.  That is why it is better to understand the Arabic because otherwise you are taking the word of the translator as to what the Qur'an means and this leads to problems.  I have addressed this more in another response where I commented that I believe that the Qur'an should be reevaluated (in the Arabic) in light of modern times.  This was a practice that used to be done quite frequently but as time went on people became stuck in a certain way.  Personally I believe that Allah (swt) is so all-knowing and powerful that he could create a book that allows for new understanding when his creation has new knowledge and is able to see things in new light.

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... It was more of a common-sense thing than anything else.

 

... and therein lies your problem ... common sense ... or 'common sense' as defined by Western rationalist thinking ... it's a cultural think which you tackle.

 

Anything translated is a translation and is not the same as the original and even here words are but symbols ... which is why the Qur'an is written like it is ... it is effectively an 'inimitable elliptical which often omits intermediate thought-clauses' (Asad) ... you have to fill in the missing bits which anyone who studies the Qur'an knows because it is a spiritual thing with which we deal ... not 'literature' as we know it from a Western perspective.  

 

ijaz ... a textual device whereby spiritual meaning is rendered into language ... this 'thought-link' ... connects one to that which is missing ... has to be inserted by the translator in order for the Qur'an to make sense in another language ... remembering that which is called the Qur'an was in fact a recitation ... not a written text.  

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... and therein lies your problem ... common sense ... or 'common sense' as defined by Western rationalist thinking ... it's a cultural think which you tackle.

 

Anything translated is a translation and is not the same as the original and even here words are but symbols ... which is why the Qur'an is written like it is ... it is effectively an 'inimitable elliptical which often omits intermediate thought-clauses' (Asad) ... you have to fill in the missing bits which anyone who studies the Qur'an knows because it is a spiritual thing with which we deal ... not 'literature' as we know it from a Western perspective.  

 

ijaz ... a textual device whereby spiritual meaning is rendered into language ... this 'thought-link' ... connects one to that which is missing ... has to be inserted by the translator in order for the Qur'an to make sense in another language ... remembering that which is called the Qur'an was in fact a recitation ... not a written text.  

 

There is so much foolishness here, I don't even know where to start... sure, translations are not going to be word-for-word the same as the original text, but according to that line of argument, nothing should ever be translated from the original language. 

 

In your attempt to refute rational thought as "Western" and thus somehow inherently evil, you've thrown away the very tools needed to understand your system... which is why you keep getting killed by me on this nonsense every time you bring it up. Go take a hard look in the mirror kid, because if you're not prepared to base faith on sound, rational reason, you're no better than the pagans the Qur'an derides. 

 

 

And similarly anyone who has ever studied foreign language can understand why a translation would be flawed or lacking.  Most words in English have a singular meaning, other languages are not as such.  Even in Spanish there are words that have several meaning, this is more so in Arabic.  That is why it is better to understand the Arabic because otherwise you are taking the word of the translator as to what the Qur'an means and this leads to problems.  I have addressed this more in another response where I commented that I believe that the Qur'an should be reevaluated (in the Arabic) in light of modern times.  This was a practice that used to be done quite frequently but as time went on people became stuck in a certain way.  Personally I believe that Allah (swt) is so all-knowing and powerful that he could create a book that allows for new understanding when his creation has new knowledge and is able to see things in new light.

 

At least you partially get it, somewhat. Sure, a translation can be flawed or lacking, but that doesn't mean that the concept of translation has to be thrown out. It simply means that the translator made some mistakes. Thankfully, mistakes in translation are easily remedied.

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