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fathi

The Season/merry Christmas

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as salaam alaiykum,

 

In the western world it is the season of Christmas.  I have two things to address.

 

1.  To my brothers and sisters in Islam I am wondering what do you do or recommend when someone wishes a merry Christmas? 

        

2.  For any non-Muslims reading this I want to ask and comment.  First the question why would you wish someone you know is not a Christian a merry christmas?  I do not wish you a happy ramadan because I know you do not celebrate this. 

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1 - Nod and smile and say 'Peace be with you'.

 

2 - Habit ... most people live in a dream and just follow social conventions ... being polite ... everyone does it ... don't they?  

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wa alaikum as salaam

 

I would think saying thanks is ok. That way you don't have to return the greeting but you are not being rude. Or you could say thanks but I actually don't celebrate christmas.To be honest in my country christmas does not even hold any religious attachment anymore especially for younger generations. Like sure people learn in school that its about Jesus but all they are really thinking about is santa and presents and the whole commercialised aspect of it. I just say thanks because I know people don't mean it in a way to offend me and if they want to ask me if I celebrate it I tell them I don't and why. 

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A very wise reply . I would however point out that NOT all Christians view Christmas as commercial and santa . That is a generalization . Most Christians would not wish a Muslim a merry Christmas , nor would they a Jew or a Buddhist or a Hindu, if they knew them to be such  . Just as most would not ask you why you do not celebrate christmas  ,no matter what your faith .

 Any gesture of goodwill is just that . No big deal .  

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Personally I wouldn't wish a Muslim, Jewish or Hindu or any person who did not celebrate Christmas a happy Christmas. The whole commercial Santa stuff has nothing to do with Christmas for a great many christians, it still holds a significant religious importance to us. As Ramadan does for you, I would recognise that fact and always wish my muslims friends blessings at that time and good wishes for the Eid celebrations also. They may not hold the same significance for me but out of respect and politeness I would offer appropriate greetings.

 

I don't think anything bad would happen to you if you accepted a greeting offered in friendship or even in passing, and a polite reply like peace to you or God bless you costs nothing.

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I am in the Bible Belt and I can tell you that while many "Christians" here claim that Christmas is not about Santa Claus and all these other pagan traditions they still practice it.  Interestingly I learned about these pagan origins while I was Christian through a Christian school.  Furthermore, it seems that Christians teach the Bible and yet think that lying is okay as long as it is a "good" lie.  Because, no matter which way it is sliced telling a child about some all seeing being like Santa Clause is a lie.  To me it seems that this is a flawed thinking as it tells the kids its okay to lie while trying to teach them not to lie. 

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This is a strange post, what an odd idea. Do muslims never lie? What about taqiyya? Lying is not ok, not even a white lie is ok. But we are weak and people often tell lies for "good" reasons to make others feel better. We will still answer for even these lies because God commanded in the Bible that we shall not lie. The reasons Christians say Santa and trees etc have nothing to do with Christianity is because we know it does not have anything to do with Christianity. The reasons we still have it is it's a tradition of longstanding. God. knows what is in our hearts, God knows that by following a tradition does not mean we love and honour Him any less. I'm sure there are many traditions followed by muslims that have more to do with culture than Allah, I'm sure Allah can tell the difference.

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I should have asked you fathi why does it concern you?

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I don't like the idea of children being misled.  To me it is among the worst things a person can do.  Practicing pagan believes was taught against in the Bible even.  Now to say do not Muslims lie is amusing.  Of course Muslims lie but there is a not a culture built around a particular lie that is told to children or any other lie.  No lying is ever good regardless of who it comes from.  I am Muslim because I submit my will to Allah (swt) and thus I follow Islam.  I do not follow nor fear Muslims.

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/think-well/201209/is-telling-kids-santa-claus-is-real-bad-idea

 

What does Jeremiah 10:1-4 say about trees?  seem familiar?

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The reasons we still have it is it's a tradition of longstanding

 

... and those reasons are that the time when the birth of Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him, is celebrated has to do with the winter equinox in the northern hemisphere ... it is the deepest part of winter when food supplies, before the days of refrigerators, were carefully measured to make sure the family could survive the rest of the dearth until the return of spring.  

 

So, once the winter solace had been reached it was a time to look forward to the return of the sun and the return to regeneration ... not insignificant qualities when considering the Christian theology.

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I don't like the idea of children being misled.

 

Misled ... in what way?

 

The story of Saint Nicholas who gave presents to the needy at the time of Christmas is probably as true as the story of Jesus.

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I don't like the idea of children being misled.  To me it is among the worst things a person can do.  Practicing pagan believes was taught against in the Bible even.  Now to say do not Muslims lie is amusing.  Of course Muslims lie but there is a not a culture built around a particular lie that is told to children or any other lie.  No lying is ever good regardless of who it comes from.  I am Muslim because I submit my will to Allah (swt) and thus I follow Islam.  I do not follow nor fear Muslims.

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/think-well/201209/is-telling-kids-santa-claus-is-real-bad-idea

 

What does Jeremiah 10:1-4 say about trees?  seem familiar?

Today, as always, God looks at the heart, and I daresay most Christians aren't celebrating anything pagan on December 25. If there was a pagan Holiday that used to fall somewhere near December 25, so what? That's not what we celebrate today. God knows that. Let's face it psychologists say a lot of stuff doesn't mean their opinion is right in every instance. I have a tree and give gifts to friends but know it has nothing to do with Christmas per se. It's nice to see you using Jeremiah, but I doubt it has much to do with today's tradition of trees and gifts seeing as the trees and gifts is fairly recent. Children aren't being misled, if they were told it was Jesus giving them the presents they receive that would be misleading, they believe Santa brings them presents if they have been good.

 

Anyway why are we even talking about this? The point of this thread was to ask what should a Muslim do when confronted by someone wishing them a merry Christmas or something. That you really need to ask an opinion of what is considered to be basic good manners is the issue I find weird. That you as a Muslim don't have any truck with Christmas well, that's a given.

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Taqiyyah is something allowed in a sects of Islam that I will not mention to you. This sect allows its followers to make taqiyyah when they are among Sunni Muslims. They are allowed to tell that they love the first three caliphs and that they love Aisha etc, but in their hearts they hate them.

 

This does not exist in mainstream Islam. 

 

In Islam, there are three situations where lying is allowed: 

 

1. The husband lies to his wife in order to make her feel comfortable. If she cooked something for the husband and the husband dislikes it, he is allowed to lie and tell her that he love it in order to make her feel good. Although, she knows what he dislikes, but she still feels pleased. This does not include to tell the wife that he goes to the Masjid, but instead he visits the cinema with friends. This would be treachery which is never allowed in Islam.

 

2. Deception during warfare or battle. It is allowed to trick the enemy/opponent through a deception, but treachery is not allowed even in war. Examples of treachery would be signing a contract and then break the agreement. 

 

3. If there is a heavy quarrel between two brothers, it is allowed for a third person to lie in order to bring the brothers together so that they reconcile. 

 

 

In Germany, we have the Saint Nikolaus and someone called Father Christmas. The Saint Nikolaus is celebrated on the sixth, but the Father Christmas is not celebrated, but those who are following the world too much make up that a guy called Father Christmas comes.

 

Father Christmas is not a pagan concoction but the Protestants/Evangelicans/Lutherans invented this figure. Why?

 

Nikolaus was a real person. He was originally from the Holland. He was an archbishop and stationed somewhere in Greece, but he was a Roman Catholic Archbishop. He had a long white beard and wore the traditional wine red garment and that typical hat with that cross. He was a person who loved children. He used to go to the houses of people and give candy and chocolate to the children. It is authentic that he hanged the gifts at the door or he placed it through the chimney. This happened. He also is known for arriving with a ship. Traditionally, he rides a ship, not a sled pulled by flying deers. 

 

The Roman Church made him a saint, so that he became Saint Nikolaus/St. Niklas. 

 

Protestants in Germany were jealous, because they also wanted to have a figure like Saint Nikolaus.  There is a reason why I don't call him Santa Claus.

 

The Protestants did not want to follow this Saint Nikolaus, because he was Catholic. They therefore invented their own Saint Nikolaus clone which they called Father Christmas or Weihnachtsmann in German. 

 

This German Protestant Father Christmas was not a pagan figure, but a fairytale or fantasy figure to make children believe that he brings good if they are behaving children. They taught the if children are good Father Christmas will come and give all those gifts. Later, the Protestants invented another figure who is meant to scare children. This fantasy figure was a serf of Father Christmas. The people deceived the children by telling them that if they are good behaving, Father Christmas will come and give gifts, but if they are bad children, the servant of Father Christmas/bogeyman/Rupert will come and spank the children. These figures were primarily used to "teach" children to be come good behaving children and warn them to misbehave.

 

In the beginning, the Father Christmas was green. He was imagined like a forester. He had a green garment and a dark beard. This was how he looked until Coca Cola gave him a new look. They gave him the colors of Coca Cola. He became red and white. Father Christmas became Santa Claus through Coca Cola. It was actually marketing figure just like Uncle Sam. 

=======================================

Now, I personally say hi or good morning or have a nice day. I am trying not to encourage them to continue with this shirk. For me it is a day, just like Halloween.

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Sorry, but I thought shirk was associating partners to Allah. How does Santa or Father Christmas fit into that scenario?

 

All lying is a sin. Anything that is against the nature of God is a sin. Lying is against the nature of God so it's a sin.

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All lying is a sin. Anything that is against the nature of God is a sin. Lying is against the nature of God so it's a sin.

 

Forgive me ... how would you know what is the 'nature of God'? 

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Don't you know God? Surely you know God is holy, God is perfect, God is love, God is all that is good, God is wondrous, God is magnificent, God is pure, God is one, God is supreme creator. I could go on but I'm sure you know this stuff if you do not I don't know what kind of Muslim you are.

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Names ... that is the limit of our understanding ... names ... that is why there is soooo many names ... we cannot 'known' the nature of that which we have trouble naming ... grand as such names may be ... 

 

So my question remains ... not knowing the 'nature' of God we cannot know what is ultimately sin and what is not ... and remember the serpent never lied ... 

 

Santa Clause is the Westernization of Saint Nicholas who gave gifts to the poor and needed at Christmas when the snow is thick and deep and food is scare at the height of a northern winter ... which seems pretty compassionate, and wondrous and loving and represents all that is good.

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Misled ... in what way?

 

The story of Saint Nicholas who gave presents to the needy at the time of Christmas is probably as true as the story of Jesus.

The story is probably true.

 

Though todays "saint nicholas" is not the man in that story.

 

He is "uncle joe" who puts on that costum. I think it is the misled?

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That the Western corporatization of Christmas now means outspending the neighbor in order to keep the stock market ticking over ... but then have a look at what the Saudis have done with the Hajj.

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That the Western corporatization of Christmas now means outspending the neighbor in order to keep the stock market ticking over ... but then have a look at what the Saudis have done with the Hajj.

Thank you very much.

It's what make me join this forum years ago, to discuss about hajj handling.

We had a thread "Profiteering From Hajj - Started By fathi, Aug 28 2012 06:50 AM".

But I don't want we go to out of topic here.

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Nikolaos of Myra, the original Santa Claus, lived before the birth of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassallam.

 

He lived from year 270 to year 343. He was born in Lycia, not Holland. Christmas was invented much later in history. The 25th of December became holiday in the year 336, yet the modern Christmas Eve and Christmas with all the gifts etc was introduced by Martin Luther 1535 as an alternative of Saint Nikolaus Day. which was celebrated on the 6th of December. 

 

He lived and died before the birth and message of Muhammad and before the Council of Nicea

 

Shirk was not regarding Santa Claus, but regarding the theology and christology of Christianity.

 

Pantheism and Panentheism are forms of Shirk.

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Nothing like a good banal ,meaningless issue to discuss and argue about . LOLOL.....by all means - carry on !

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It's quite simple. There are two distinct Christmases:

1. The Christian Christmas, where believers celebrate the birth of their baby Jesus.

2. The secular Xmas, where non-believers and believers of other faiths celebrate an annual social, festive celebration that has much more in common with the earlier, pagan roots of winter solstice etc.

Many people in both camps spend too much money, but the bottom line is about family, friends and good food & drink. Enjoy!

 

If you are worried whether replying to a greeting of "Merry Christmas" is appropriate, the correct response is "Bah, humbug!"

(And it's "merry", not "happy". "Happy" goes with New Year.)

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Bit weird, as Christmas is past and Lent is upon us, shouldn't the topic be Easter based? :)

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LOLOLOL.........GOOD ONE QED!!!!

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