Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Tunisia

Circumcision

Recommended Posts

With regard to Circumcision, the earlier the easier.

Every human is born innocent and Muslim.

Jews/Yahood are the descendants of Judah.

Judah was the son of israel Jacob.

He is ancestor of the Jews, Levites, the children of Gad, Dan, Ruben, Benjamin, Joseph, etc

The Pharisees were Jews, but the Sadduzees were Levites.

israel had been a son of Isaak. Isaak had been patriarch of israel and Edom.

Isaak had been a son of Abraham.

Abraham is father of Isaac and all his descendants as well as Ishmael and his descendants.

I don't really get part of your post, how can you say everyone is born Muslim? Innocent yes, but how so are we all Muslim?

 

True Abraham was the father of Isaac and Ishmael however Gods kcovenant was through Isaac not Ishmael that is why the Jews circumcise today because they identify with Gods covenant through Isaac. God promised Ishmael would be a father to nations but Ishmael did not carry Gods covenant. Am I to understand that muslims today believe they are under the same covenant as the Jews through Abraham? Even though muslims claim descendancy from Ishmael? I would ask my fiancée this but honestly I don't think he would know much about Gods covenants etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

We believe everyone is born Muslim. A Muslim is one who submits to Allah. And we believe that when we are born we are in submission to Allah. It is then the things around us and the people around us that shape us and our life direction changes. That is why if you are born in one part of the world you may be raised a Hindu while in another you would be raised a Christian. So when someone like me later on chooses to become Muslim we say we are reverts not converts because we are going back to what we were originally. Hope that helps. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We believe everyone is born Muslim. A Muslim is one who submits to Allah. And we believe that when we are born we are in submission to Allah. It is then the things around us and the people around us that shape us and our life direction changes. That is why if you are born in one part of the world you may be raised a Hindu while in another you would be raised a Christian. So when someone like me later on chooses to become Muslim we say we are reverts not converts because we are going back to what we were originally. Hope that helps. 

I see what you mean, but don't understand how that works in reality. Because if what you say is correct then everyone who submits to God like Jews and Christians are muslims. As a Christian I submit my will to God, I accept God as my creator and everything happens does so by His will. Yet I do not see myself as a Muslim. I do not see how the Biblical prophets who were mainly Jewish would consider themselves Muslim by today's criteria of the term Muslim, for a start the term Islam is Arabic is it not, it was never part of their culture. I mean as well as submitting to God you also have to accept Mohammed as a Prophet.

 

I see a Muslim as believing in God but also following Mohammed's teachings above other prophets, I see Jews as following God whilst not accepting Christ, and Christians following God who accept Jesus as their saviour. To squabble and split hairs on the semantics of it all I see as a waste of time as we all bow to the same God and that is the one thing that unites us and should be the most important thing. It's like God ordained each of our paths in life but they all return to Him, sometimes God may wish us to change paths like you have. I think this is because God knows our needs better than we know it ourself and if we waver on one path he sends us a different one that seems clearer to us. Good wishes for your journey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that you do not accept our view. It seems strange for someone else from another religion to accept such a thing. But because as Muslims we believe Islam is the only religion, people who accept a different religion in their life are not in submission to God in our view. We believe all prophets were Muslims. There is no evidence of Jesus pbuh calling himself a Christian. The word Christian was term that came after Jesus went from this world. I think we have certain ideas when we hear the word Muslim. But really we must think of the basic meaning of the word which is one who submits to Allah. We couldn't agree that Jews submit to Allah because they do not accept that Muhammad or Jesus were messengers of Allah and Christians do not accept Muhammad. At the moment we are born we cannot question Allah - we are in full submission. But Allah gave us free will so when we grow we learn to use our mind. And during our lives we question and therefore some of us refuse to accept the full truth. But the truth is always there and there can only be one truth. If we accept there is only one God then we must also accept there is only one truth. We cannot all be right from Scientologists to Hindus to Muslims. They all have completely different views. Maybe we have some views in common but on a complete level there can only be one complete truth. 

Anyway before getting too deep into a different conversation I just wanted to point out why we say people were born Muslims. I understand if you disagree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that you do not accept our view. It seems strange for someone else from another religion to accept such a thing. But because as Muslims we believe Islam is the only religion, people who accept a different religion in their life are not in submission to God in our view. We believe all prophets were Muslims. There is no evidence of Jesus pbuh calling himself a Christian. The word Christian was term that came after Jesus went from this world. I think we have certain ideas when we hear the word Muslim. But really we must think of the basic meaning of the word which is one who submits to Allah. We couldn't agree that Jews submit to Allah because they do not accept that Muhammad or Jesus were messengers of Allah and Christians do not accept Muhammad. At the moment we are born we cannot question Allah - we are in full submission. But Allah gave us free will so when we grow we learn to use our mind. And during our lives we question and therefore some of us refuse to accept the full truth. But the truth is always there and there can only be one truth. If we accept there is only one God then we must also accept there is only one truth. We cannot all be right from Scientologists to Hindus to Muslims. They all have completely different views. Maybe we have some views in common but on a complete level there can only be one complete truth. 

Anyway before getting too deep into a different conversation I just wanted to point out why we say people were born Muslims. I understand if you disagree. 

Paradiselost, of course there is no evidence for Jesus calling himself a Christian. Jesus was not a Christian, He was a Jew, He was born a Jew and He died a Jew. Christians are those that follow the teachings of Jesus, in regards to what He taught about God. You are right when you say there is one truth, that one truth is for God to know and for us to find out. I believe I have the truth in the teachings of Jesus yours lies elsewhere. We still continue our life accordingly each making the best choices and we believe. I would not be so arrogant as to say I am right therefore you must be wrong to anyone, for the reason we have no way of knowing that we are right, and this fact alone should be enough to stop us attempting to persuade others to join "our truth"as opposed to what they already believe.

 

I think it's sad when this happens I don't care if a person is Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or any other faith or even a person who has no faith in any religion. It's more important that they are good people at heart and treat those around them with the love and respect they would wish to be shown themselves. This respect comes from a greater understanding of the religions we all have. Really all this my religion is better and bigger than yours is a big waste of time, so what we hold different views I can still love you as a sister in humanity. On that one level you mention, God alone knows the truth, The Lord Our God the Father has sent many prophets over time explaining that truth weather we have the capacity to understand it and it's implications for us is another thing. Best to ask God Himself, I usually find He always has the right answer to everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a hierarchy of belief:

 

1. Atheism/Atheists

2. Theist

3. Monotheist

4. Muslim

5. Mu'min

6. Muhsin

7. Saddique

8. Prophet

9. Messenger

10. Messenger of Strong Will

11. Leader of Mankind

 

Every human being is being born as a Theist. It is part of the natural disposition of a human being to believe in the Creator. Therefore, there is not excuse for atheism. Every human being knows that God exists. The reason for that is that our souls or lifespirit was alive and existed already before we were born. God Allmighty caused all the descendants of Adam and Eve to come out of the back of Adam, but only our souls. All the descendants of Adam came out of Adam's back from the first child of Adam to the last child of Adam. We appeared to Adam like pearls. There we gave a pledge to God Almighty that we accept God only as our Lord and Creator AND don't worship anything besides God. We don't remember this, but this incident is part of our natural instinct. 

Our soul is in constant struggle to come close to the Creator while our body and nafs are constantly struggling to follow this material world. Your soul is constantly seeking the pleasure of the Creator.

 

When you are born, you are born with the knowledge that God exists. By knowing that God exists, you sign a contract that you believe that there can only be One Creator who created you. This is also part of your natural disposition when you are born. There is no excuse for a person to be a polytheist, because it does not make sense to believe in more than one Creator. A person who is a monotheist is called Muwahid in Arabic.

 

The doctrine of the Oneness of God is called Tawheed and people adhering to Tawheed are Muwahid(een). You cannot be a Muslim without being a Muwahid, but a Muslim is always a Muwahid. It is possible to be a Muwahid, but not a Muslim. There are three aspects of monotheism that must be fulfilled in order to be a Muwahid. 

 

1. You need to believe in the Oneness of God regarding his Lordship. You must accept him as your Creator and as your Cherisher and Sustainer. This aspect of Monotheism is describing God's Actions towards us. His mercy and his generosity is part of his Lordship. Our response to his Lordship is just to believe in it without trying to figure out why. God causes the rain to come down that blesses the lands. God causes the animals to spread and multiply. As the Sustainer he gives us Sustenance and Favors.

 

2. The second aspect is the Oneness of God regarding worship. This aspect of Monotheism is describing our actions towards God. This includes that we attain the state of Ubudiyyah. Ubudiyyah is the Arabic word that means that we must make our objectives and intents subordinate to the Intents and Objectives of God Almighty. The person who attains this state or belief is called Abd = the Slave of God = the Abd of God = the Abd of Allah = Abdullah. We connect with our Creator through acts of worship which are the rituals of worship such as testimony, praying, fasting, spending, and pilgrimage. All these acts of worship cannot be for anyone except for Allah. The acts of worship are acts of subordination of our objectives and intents to accept the Objectives and Intents of Allah. These acts are therefore called Ibadah. The Abd performs Ibadah in order to attain the state of Ubudiyyah which is making own intents subordinate to the Intent of God. We are living within the 4 dimensional world and are limited to the four dimensions, but God almighty above the four dimensions. He does not partake in all the dimensions. He is the Creator of all the dimensions. Therefore, we need something that connects us with God in such a way that we can understand and grasp it. This is the Sharee'ah. We can only know what Allah's Intents are through Sharee'ah and Revelation through Prophets and Messengers.

 

You don't even pass the test of Monotheism, because you direct your acts of worship to Jesus who you use as a mediator. Whoever worships God and ... will end up with that what comes after "and". You are not Abd'Isa or the Slave of Jesus, but the Slave of God. 

 

3. The third aspect tells us not to compare God with the creation nor compare the creation with God.

 

Next:

 

If you know that God is one with all the aspects, you then must come to the conclusion that you must submit to him. How you submit to Him needs to be acquired through studying, but the willingness to Submit to God must be there. Submission is by action. Whenever a revelation comes down through a new Prophet or Messenger, this revelation becomes Sharee'ah for us. The other laws and covenants are abrogated. The Old Testament and many parts of the New Testament are directed to the Children of israel who need to follow the Jewish Laws instead of the Noahide Laws. These books are not directed to Gentiles who follow the Noahide Laws, but don't need to follow the Jewish Laws. Jesus who delivered the injeel came down to lift some of the Jewish Law/Sharee'ah.

A Muslim is someone who submits willingly to the Laws of God. This law is for Humanity.

You know that Jesus said that if you fill old wine in a new hose, the wine will spoil, but if you fill new wine in an old hose, the hose will break. A new covenant comes with a new sharee'ah/Law. The bible contains mostly Jewish Laws, but almost no Noahide Laws for the Gentiles. 

 

By testifying that Allah is one we become Muwahideen/Monotheists. By worshipping only one God we become Slaves of Allah, but by adhering to his revelations and sharee'ah we become Muslims. That is submission in practice. You also have to believe in the six pillars of faith in order to be a Muslim.

 

There is a difference between a Muslim and a Believer. Every believer is a Muslim, but not every Muslim is a Believer. The characteristics of a believer/Mu'min is that they are able to suppress four things: Anger, Greed, Sexual Desires, and Excessive Fear/Worry.

 

The next stage is Ihsaan. The person who reaches that level of Islam is called a Muhsin. They are those who will not be punished in the Hereafter, but a Mu'min may be trials and punished due to a major sin. A Muhsin is usually called Righteous. The Righteous reached a level of perfection with regards to belief and actions. The main characteristic of a Righteous is that he lives as if he sees Allah in front of him and if he does not see Allah, in his mind he knows that Allah is watching him. That means that this person feels the presence of Allah although he does not literally see Allah. Whenever, he undresses he feels shy. Whenever, he goes outdoors he feels shy not wearing a hat. Whenever, an opportunity of stealing something arises he immediately feels Allah watching him and feels shy. If you prayed in the middle of the street you might feel shy doing it, but a Righteous feels that Allah is constantly watching. If you watched Pictures with sexual content and your father is downstairs, you would not feel shy, but if your father would enter the room, you would feel shy. If you know that someone is monitoring you constantly, you would not do something that would embarrass you. The Righteous do not just refrain bad actions, but they do a lot of good deeds. Their good deeds wipe out their bad deeds.

 

Siddique is the highest stage before Prophethood. They are called the Truthful or the Trustworthy. They are like the Righteous, but they like to initiate the good deeds and actions. They like to build a tree and other benefit from it. They try to be the first when it comes to good deeds and they don't wait until someone else does it. They are those who don't go through reckoning on the Day of Judgement. The Muhsin/The Righteous might need to go through the Reckoning stage on the day of judgment, but the Truthful does not. They are also known for doing extra good deeds just to please God. They don't just do things, because they must do it, but because they love to please Allah.

 

The next levels is Prophethood. The prophet receives revelations from God through the Holy Spirit which is Angel Gabriel. God informs entrusts Angel Gabriel with a message. The Angel Gabriel delivers the message to the appointed prophet. The prophet conveys the message unto the people he is responsible for. The world has seen about 124000 prophets.

 

The next level is that of the Messenger. Every Messenger is a prophet, but not every prophet is a Messenger. The Messenger is entrusted with a new law. Whenever a new covenant is made, a messenger is sent in order to bring a new law. God orders the Angel Gabriel to deliver the Law to the Prophet. Then the Prophet is sent to a people to warn them and convey them the new law. It is not just a reminder of a law that people have neglected, but a new law with a new covenant. Among the 124000 prophets only 131 were Messengers. 

 

The next level of human perfection is the Messenger of Strong Will. Among the 131 Messengers of Strong Will there were only five Messengers of Strong Will which are Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. 

 

Muhammad is the Leader of Mankind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kai Thabbit, I'm not sure why you have posted the above on this thread. In fact I'm not sure how this thread has turned into comparing religions or indeed why the need to compare at all. Obviously you as a Muslim will hold to the above belief whereas I will not not. I think we should end it here I think I have all the information I need on the point in question that of circumcision to make an informed choice if and when the need arises, which was what I was looking for on this thread.

 

There is no need of preaching. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In fact Kai Thabbit, I'm sorry but the more I read your post the more unpleasant I find it. It is quite off putting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×