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Comparing Islamic Values To Western Secular Values

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fathi -

 

From my perspective you and I are having a discussion, and we're using our minds and thinking - which is what the Quran tells us we should do. That doesn't mean we will always agree. I understood what you said. And I agree that sometimes the same word will have different meanings depending on the situation or the context. I also agree that the spoken word can have power that it doesn't have when it's written. Now I'm asking you to think a little more deeply, a little more philosophically.

 

For this discussion, I'm using the Quran as the ultimate authority. For this discussion I'm only saying to you what I read in the Quran. When you say I need to have context, my response is that the Quran tells me I don't. The Quran proclaims itself to be eternal and clearly understandable. That means that people 10,000 years from will be able to understand it. They will not need to know about Muhammad living in the desert in order to understand the Quran.

 

Is there anything I just said that goes against what's in the Quran?

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Is there anything I just said that goes against what's in the Quran?

 

 

Similarly (to complete My blessings on you), We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, reciting to you Our verses and purifying you, and teaching you the Book and Wisdom, and teaching you that which you did not know.)  (2:151)

 

The Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was sent to teach the Qur'an. Thus, his teachings are integral to the Revelation. The Prophet  Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, taught his Companions and they in turn taught their disciples, and their teachings have been passed down to us in an unbroken chain. They, the Companions, didn't just tell their disciples that they need no context, much less that the Qur'an says so. The Companions of the Prophet transmitted a huge amount of narrations concerning the context in which Qur'anic verses were revealed.

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Thanks for that Younes,

 

So, if I understand correctly, you're now mostly talking about the Hadith? Is that correct? If so, isn't it the case that the Hadith have been compiled and recompiled and edited and re-edited by many, many scholars for hundreds of years?

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So, if I understand correctly, you're now mostly talking about the Hadith? Is that correct? If so, isn't it the case that the Hadith have been compiled and recompiled and edited and re-edited by many, many scholars for hundreds of years?

 

Hadith means narration in English. So, yes the Companions narrated information for future generations. 

 

Yes, Hadiths have been compiled, but I don't know what you mean by recompiled nor editing and re-editing. 

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My understanding is that the Hadith have gone through many stages of being collected by scholars. Then the scholars decide which ones are valid and discard some. Then another generation of scholars came along and did more editing and rearranging and so on. The basic idea is that at this point the Hadith that remain have been influenced by Islamic scholars. Very different than the Quran.

 

Is this understanding correct?

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You will find even narrations that are not considered true in the books - the scholars did not just throw away what people told them. However, based on their classification some narrations are considered weak/abrograted and are noted as such. I think you should do a bit more study about the classification of hadiths and how they were collected before you say things like scholars came along and threw some away. It doesn't seem like you are reading the right sources at all if that is what you have concluded. 

 

I am pretty sure I gave you a link to this website before http://sunnah.com/ and you will see here that each hadith is marked by whether it is considered sahih (sound), hasan (good), daif (weak) etc.

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Paradise,

 

You are correct, I was being imprecise and casual with my last post, I felt Younes was looking for a quick summary.

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There is a science to the collecting of hadith.  If every hadith were to be accepted it would be quite chaotic.  I know one of the first requirements is that it cannot contradict the Qur'an.  For instance, if a hadith says that it is okay to drink alcohol this is likely a false hadith.   Now indeed we are supposed to use our own mind and in this particular case that means understanding the context of the surahs revealed.  This is why it is better to read the entire Qur'an rather than bits and pieces or at least to read it as it was revealed.  The Qur'an (as it was revealed) was revealed in the manner it was for a reason.  Taking it out of context leads to problems.  If you compare some of the Qur'an to the life of the prophet and how he behaved in accordance with the revelations and you discover that something in the translation flies in the face of the life of the prophet then most likely there is something wrong with the translation. 

 

For hundreds of years it was a requirement to study Arabic to learn the Qur'an.  It is only over the past couple hundred years that translations have been considered acceptable.  Up until this point it was required to at least understand the Arabic so that each individual was able to read the actual Qur'an for themselves.  And regardless of the differences among various versions of Muslims no Muslim will ever tell you that the translation is the actual Qur'an therefore if you insist on not even studying the context of the revelation yet alone the Arabic to study the Qur'an yourself you are not really reading the Qur'an but rather the translators understanding of it which is limited to the translators worldview as well as their understanding of the English language.

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Have you ever seen statistics about what percentage of Muslims in the world ever read the entire Quran?

 

I have a feeling that the fact that I've read an entire translation of the Quran and that I've read a small bit of the Hadith makes me as studious as many Muslims?

 

(I also read parts of two other translations, just to be sure that the one I read seemed accurate - which it did.)

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My understanding is that the Hadith have gone through many stages of being collected by scholars. Then the scholars decide which ones are valid and discard some. Then another generation of scholars came along and did more editing and rearranging and so on. The basic idea is that at this point the Hadith that remain have been influenced by Islamic scholars. Very different than the Quran.

 

Is this understanding correct?

 

No, the above understanding is not correct.

 

Once a scholar had collected his Hadith compilation, it remained in that state, i.e. later scholars didn't edit it. Even if the compilation contained weak Hadiths, they weren't just thrown out, like ParadiseLost said. So, no there wasn't any editing in that sense. However, later scholars reviewed the works of the earlier scholars, but they didn't change the works of the earlier scholars. If the latter scholars felt some Hadiths were weak in the earlier scholars' compilations, then the later scholars would point it out in their works. 

 

Some scholars included in their works Hadiths which they knew were fabricated. Why, you might ask. Because their standard was to collect absolutely everything they heard and to document it. For example, at-Tabari was such a scholar. His works contain Hadiths that are fabricated but they have been preserved, i.e. later scholars didn't just come along and say, "We know this is fabricated so let's erase it". So, there was no editing and rearranging in that sense. Instead of speaking of editing and rearranging, I would use the word "reviewing". 

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Thanks Younes,

 

So reviewing, and it also sounds like the idea of classifying or rating (e.g. weak, sound, good...) ?

 

Is it largely true that a relatively small percentage is considered to be "the best"? For example, if you understand this 10%, you really will have a good sense of the Hadith in general? If so, can anyone point me to that, most useful portion?

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Once a scholar had collected his Hadith compilation, it remained in that state, i.e. later scholars didn't edit it.

 

Some scholars included in their works Hadiths which they knew were fabricated. 

I have read the Quran (Al-Hilali/Khan. Is this a good translation? It has interpretations and meanings which I find useful) but have not started on the Hadith yet. (Could you reccommend a good website - to start with - and a good English publication, thanks)

I assume that Hadith that are known to be false are clearly marked as such.

Also, doesn't having fabrications included give atheists the opportunity to quote them out of context?

Is it possible to just use the Quran as the source of guidance, to avoid any confusion?

(I really do need to start a new thread with all my questions!)

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I have read the Quran (Al-Hilali/Khan. Is this a good translation? It has interpretations and meanings which I find useful) but have not started on the Hadith yet. (Could you reccommend a good website - to start with - and a good English publication, thanks)

I assume that Hadith that are known to be false are clearly marked as such.

Also, doesn't having fabrications included give atheists the opportunity to quote them out of context?

Is it possible to just use the Quran as the source of guidance, to avoid any confusion?

(I really do need to start a new thread with all my questions!)

 

begin with 40 hadith qudsy , here is great hadith collection in english 

http://www.guidedways.com/qudsihadith.php

 

Forty Hadith Qudsi

Imam Nawawi's Forty Hadith and Forty Hadith Qudsi are widely regarded as the most popular anthology and the best introduction to the study of the Prophet's Sayings in the English language.

The hadith summarize the essential teachings of Islam, concentrating on the following areas: affirmation of the doctrine of tawhid and understanding Allah (swt) in all His attributes, the significance of the five pillars of Islam, attainment of virtue, self-sacrifice for the cause of Allah (swt) and preparation for the day of judgement.

The Hadith Qudsi, or sacred hadith, have a particularly important status because their meaning is entirely from Allah (swt) while the wording is that of the Prophet Muhammad (s) himself. For each of the eighty hadith presented, the Arabic original has been printed alongside the English translation, which has earned a reputation for its scholastic accuracy and readability

Among the many definitions given by the early scholars to Sacred Hadith is that of as-Sayyid ash-Sharif al-Jurjani (died in 816 A.H.) in his lexicon At-Tarifat where he says: "A Sacred Hadith is, as to the meaning, from Allah the Almighty; as to the wording, it is from the messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). It is that which Allah the Almighty has communicated to His Prophet through revelation or in dream, and he, peace be upon him, has communicated it in his own words."

The hadith qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet divinely communicated to him. The present collection has been compiled from all the available books of hadith. The forty chosen here are all well authenticated and present many of the doctrinal, devotional and ethical elements of Islam.

[The Above taken from : An introduction to the subject and select sample texts, see e.g. Ibrahim Izzuddin and Denis Johnson-Davies: Forty Hadith Qudsi, Beirut, Damascus, 1980.] 

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But the Muslim world is such a mess and so divided. And Muslims are falling over themselves to get in line to live in the West.

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But the Muslim world is such a mess and so divided. And Muslims are falling over themselves to get in line to live in the West.

This could be their legacy through Ishmael.

 

Blessings

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But the Muslim world is such a mess and so divided. And Muslims are falling over themselves to get in line to live in the West.

 

Like Christianity is doing any better? There are tens of thousands more divisions in Christianity than there are in Islam. And we wonder why Muslims won't convert... it's because of our failure to live up to the holiness that God has called us to which results in people turning away.

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Islamic values are the biggest gift of Allah (SWT), which He bestowed to humanity in the form of Sharia. I think west is getting sensible and due to sensibility, it can now decide a better way following.

But the Muslim world is such a mess and so divided. And Muslims are falling over themselves to get in line to live in the West.

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Christianity, at least, has the distinct advantage that christians are less likely to shoot you if you believe god wears the wrong colour of underpants.

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Hello,

 

Well, I think it's within their right as long as they do it in a civil manner. That's because the law in many European countries allows just that.

It seems like Muslims abusing the freedoms of Western democracy to undermine those freedoms. Correct me if Im wrong then if Muslims had there way in western society then in would come sharia law, apostasy laws blasphemy laws etc and then the Western freedoms that Muslims have enjoyed and abused have gone.
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