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Nile_Salafy

911 Another Point Of View

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To repeat myself, show the technical, peer reviewed papers which show that explosives were used. Not videos of people saying what they think happened.

So you want technical official reports by engineering firms to be given here on this forum ?

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So you want technical official reports by engineering firms to be given here on this forum ?

No, just a link to them. Like you link to YouTube videos.

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Great 15 min video, crystal clear 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw#t=0

4 min video, crystal clear! Both are mere speculation (apart from possibly the info about the fire-fighters withdrawing as the building was showing signs of imminent collapse, but even this would need the official FF reports to verify this) without the peer-reviewed, technical reports to back them up.

 

There are two ways to conduct research; to make a theory from the data, or to make the data fit a theory.

One is right and one is wrong.

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Just one more thought.

Which is more likely and reasonable? A) That a perfectly rational and demonstrable chain of processes led to the collapse of a building, or B) that unspecified government agents deliberately and secretly, with undetermined motive, demolished it by methods which don't fully fit the scenario, and that this conspiracy has remained totally secret through years of Wikileaks, Edward Snowden and other disclosures?

 

I think probably A. What do others think?

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Videos can be photo-shopped . Where is the technical proof ?   And from accredited people ?  A respected scientific journal ?

 

And that does include "
small change " and their video .

 

You have no credible evidence Nile_Salafy . All you have is your doubts and your opinion .   Good luck with that .  But this is what you need , so if it brings you comfort  by all means carry on .

 

 

I reach a point in a discussion when I recognize that I am arguing against impenetrable ignorance or totally subjective opinion . At this point you may declare yourself the winner , and go about your business . Luckily your lack of information on this subject is not critical for you to carry on your life safely .

 There are cases however where this type of denial does cost lives , like in Pakistan where Polio is breaking out due to denial and ignorance regarding the vaccine . Science replaced with myth can be dangerous . Fortunately in this case , you just look silly and no harm is done .

 

good luck .

Edited by Aligarr

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Just one more thought.

Which is more likely and reasonable? A) That a perfectly rational and demonstrable chain of processes led to the collapse of a building, or B) that unspecified government agents deliberately and secretly, with undetermined motive, demolished it by methods which don't fully fit the scenario, and that this conspiracy has remained totally secret through years of Wikileaks, Edward Snowden and other disclosures?

 

I think probably A. What do others think?

C'mon people.

A or B?

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Conspiracy theories flourish  in the realm of misinformation and lack of information . Given the incident of 9/11 . there is no reasonable excuse for either.

 So rather than being purely objective , conspiracy theorists are wholly subjective and depend on their followers to be the same .

 

 As for you tube ? LOLOLOLOL....there was a video of a magician cutting a man in half , a dog that talks , etc . I guess t must be true huh ?

 9/11 if nothing else , and as terrible an even  as it was , is a clear documented example of Cause and Effect .  Deniers reject science , logic , and indeed what their own eyes have seen . There are far too many independent witnesses with videos to be confined to any You  Tube video .

 Nile _Salafy would like to believe it wasn't Muslims , bur "someone else " , others who mistrust government want to believe a government plot , so they take facts twist them to fit their theories and attempt to raise reasonable doubt . The religionists sleep better at night with their delusion , the others make money speaking and selling books .

 

Human nature at it's not so best .

 

Whether or not this remains harmless is yet to be seen , but as for more observable effects of misinformation such as refusal of immunizations in the US and Peshawar area of Pakistan , this behavior has already taken its toll in death and suffering , and that continues as we speak . That is the responsibility of the conspiracy theorists and those who buy into them .Unfortunately those effects reach out even to those who would not even be part of these lies .  

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QED I am wondering if seems odd to you that the owner took out a policy on the building just a couple of months before?  A coincidence of that nature seems a bit odd. Another thing that struck me as odd was that frankly the idea of a single guy (or even two) taking over an entire plane with a box-cutter (as was originally reported). You want reason?  military industrial complex.  I am not crazy enough to propose that the entire government was behind it.  What I do know though is that those with the most motivation are usually the culprits.  I would say if it was government related it was CIA, and top military officials acting solo

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QED I am wondering if seems odd to you that the owner took out a policy on the building just a couple of months before?  A coincidence of that nature seems a bit odd. Another thing that struck me as odd was that frankly the idea of a single guy (or even two) taking over an entire plane with a box-cutter (as was originally reported). You want reason?  military industrial complex.  I am not crazy enough to propose that the entire government was behind it.  What I do know though is that those with the most motivation are usually the culprits.  I would say if it was government related it was CIA, and top military officials acting solo

Every building owner takes out insurance. What is the significance of the leaseholder of WTC having insurance on his property? He took out the policies a couple of months before the attacks because that was when he bought the lease! No coincidence whatsoever. The NY Port Authority had been trying to sell it for some time due to the effects of the 87 market crash and needed to cut costs.

Each plane contained 5 hijackers, armed with various knives, mace and bombs (although investigations concluded that the bombs were probably fake). The pilots would have readily handed control over in the face of threats of death to passengers and crew. Remember, this was pre 9/11 so no one knew that they intended to crash the planes. The assumption would have been that is was a regular hijack with money, asylum, release of prisoners etc, as the aim.

 

CIA and top military acting solo? The identity, affiliation and motivation of the hijackers is known, or do you question this as well? Are you suggestiong that the CIA was in cahoots with Bin Laden? There had certainly been contact in the past but there is no evidence that the attacks were anything but Al Qaeda planned and executed.  Who provided the (extensive) manpower needed to install all the explosives for the controlled demolitions? (Were all 7 buildings destroyed this way?) Why has nothing emerged about this? Dozens of men planting dozens of demolition charges in several, very busy buildings and no one noticed? No evidence of the work was spotted by anyone? Not one of these people has broken silence? Also, do you realise how difficult it would be to crash each plane into the exact floor where the explosives had been planted? None of this was even hinted at in all the thousands of leaked CIA NSA & military files? This all assumes that there are dozens of CIA/military who are happy to murder thousands of fellow Americans in order for some corporations to make more profit and not one of them has had second thoughts? You say the reason for the attacks was "military-industrial complex". That is not a reason, that is a concept. You need to explain why and how.

 

With fanatical, ideollogically inspired acts, motive loses its significance compared to run-of-the-mill crimes. The perpetrator has nothing to gain from a suicide attack, therefore using your logic they would never happen.

 

If you look at the facts without the bias of hoping they show that it was not Muslims inspired by Islam (albeit unjustifiably) or that very American, anti-government, conspiracy theory trait, there is no doubt or controversy.

Edited by QED

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I am not sure I really want to reply now because instead of actually replying to me you instead replied to me and mixed in the ideas of others as well in some random ramble response.  When you show that you are wanting to be reasonable and respond to my actual posts and not lump them in with the posts of others I will respond again. Until then, later.

 

Btw, if you are wondering what I mean go back and read what I actually wrote, instead of what you think it implied. 

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faithi , you said  "IF"  , it was government related ...and it was not . It was Muslims motivated by hatred and a desire to be martyrs . That's hard for you to accept obviously .

 You say maybe it was "part " of the government ....and it was not .

 

You don't understand how men with box cutters could commandeer a jet liner . It was easy , the people on the plane were unsuspecting and civilized human beings , the men with the box cutters were uncivilized barbarians . At the time there was no way to prevent them from entering the pilots area and immediately slashing their throats as they did with the stewardesses . People were not suspecting or prepared for such savagery .

This type of operation will never succeed again because people are now aware of such motivations and intentions .

Unfortunately , civilized people will almost always underestimate the savagery of barbarians , And as was mentioned before , no one knew the hijackers planned to intentionally crash the airliners into occupied buildings .

 One flight in which the passengers became aware of the intentions of the hijackers  , those passengers sacrificed their lives to save lives and caused the plane to crash into the ground . Unlike the hijackers , threy sacrificed their lives to save life rather than to take lives .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 We all know better now .

Edited by Aligarr

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Wow thank you for proving to everyone reading this exactly how irrational you really are.  Your wording shows your irrationality.  Nothing is ever absolute and should always be viewed with scrutiny.  I said it is possible that government did it.  Never once did I say that it was not an act done by irrational psychopaths following some warped version of what they think Islam is.  You, however, presume that the U.S. government would never commit atrocities while conveniently forgetting the numerous ones that have been committed.  There is the march of Sherman.  There are the contra groups in South America.  This is all to say nothing of the thousands upon millions of indigenous Americans that were killed by the colonialist mindset of the U.S. government. 

 

Why not just come out and say what you are really thinking?

 

Because I was born and raised in this country, and you need to wake up junior.  The U.S. is not this all perfect freedom loving thing you think it is.  Go back and read the Articles of Confederation, focus on articles four through six.  This country was built for the rich.  What you really want to believe without hesitation is that the U.S. is the land of the free, and we are fighting in foreign lands across the world to give the power to the people and bring democracy to the world. 

 

Tell me something how deep does your indoctrination go?  I mean seriously.  Are you able to think for yourself or do you really just spit back the rhetoric that someone else teaches you?  See I was taught to think for myself.  I review both sides before I come to any conclusions.

 

Judging by your comments and the words that you chose to use in the order you chose to use them I would say that there is more you wanted to say.   So why not just say them?  Say what you really want to say. 

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I think I made it quite clear faithi . I will not play with words as you do , nor will I insert innuendo as you try . I have no doubts as to what my own eyes have seen , nor do I have any doubts regarding the conclusions of unbiased experts in all the scientific diciplines involved .

 Having said that and after listening to people like you for 13 years , having all your theories and suspicions thoroughly debunked , by experts who have no social , ideological or religious agendas , leaves me free to  put such foolishness in it's place without reservation .

 Every point you have brought up has been debunked thoroughly ....not maybe , not if , but absolutely . If you wish to cling to fairytales  to make yourself feel better , you are free to do so , but an endless thread of semantics and word games is a tactic I will expose rather than waste bandwidth on .

 The science and engineering journals and their  conclusions are all in the public domain , available to all who seek the truth . They are a matter of fact not theory .

 Obviously you have chosen a different path , so  lets not mince words .

 

Of course you can provide links and videos which show nothing , and present so called scientists who hold opposing views , but they comprise about .005 % of all scientists .  If this were a matter of putting your money down I could guarantee you would not cast your lot with them .

 You can entertain all the theories and doubts that you wish , but if you are going to use them in a debate regarding facts , both they AND you fall flat on your face .

 

 

I know who did it , I know why ,and I know how they did it . And so does the majority of educated and objective people .

  If you have PROOF /FACTS  to refute what is  known , then bring it forward . Your opinion does not count .

Edited by Aligarr

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QED I am wondering if seems odd to you that the owner took out a policy on the building just a couple of months before?  A coincidence of that nature seems a bit odd.    

Every building owner takes out insurance. What is the significance of the leaseholder of WTC having insurance on his property? He took out the policies a couple of months before the attacks because that was when he bought the lease! No coincidence whatsoever. The NY Port Authority had been trying to sell it for some time due to the effects of the 87 market crash and needed to cut costs.

 

Another thing that struck me as odd was that frankly the idea of a single guy (or even two) taking over an entire plane with a box-cutter (as was originally reported).

Each plane contained 5 hijackers, armed with various knives, mace and bombs (although investigations concluded that the bombs were probably fake). The pilots would have readily handed control over in the face of threats of death to passengers and crew. Remember, this was pre 9/11 so no one knew that they intended to crash the planes. The assumption would have been that is was a regular hijack with money, asylum, release of prisoners etc, as the aim.

 

I would say if it was government related it was CIA, and top military officials acting solo

CIA and top military acting solo? The identity, affiliation and motivation of the hijackers is known, or do you question this as well? Are you suggestiong that the CIA was in cahoots with Bin Laden? There had certainly been contact in the past but there is no evidence that the attacks were anything but Al Qaeda planned and executed.  Who provided the (extensive) manpower needed to install all the explosives for the controlled demolitions? (Were all 7 buildings destroyed this way?) Why has nothing emerged about this? Dozens of men planting dozens of demolition charges in several, very busy buildings and no one noticed? No evidence of the work was spotted by anyone? Not one of these people has broken silence? Also, do you realise how difficult it would be to crash each plane into the exact floor where the explosives had been planted? None of this was even hinted at in all the thousands of leaked CIA NSA & military files? This all assumes that there are dozens of CIA/military who are happy to murder thousands of fellow Americans in order for some corporations to make more profit and not one of them has had second thoughts?

 

You want reason?  military industrial complex.

You say the reason for the attacks was "military-industrial complex". That is not a reason, that is a concept. You need to explain why and how.

 

What I do know though is that those with the most motivation are usually the culprits.

With fanatical, ideollogically inspired acts, motive loses its significance compared to run-of-the-mill crimes. The perpetrator has nothing to gain from a suicide attack, therefore using your logic they would never happen.

 

If you look at the facts without the bias of hoping they show that it was not Muslims inspired by Islam (albeit unjustifiably) or that very American, anti-government, conspiracy theory trait, there is no doubt or controversy.

 

I am not sure I really want to reply now because instead of actually replying to me you instead replied to me and mixed in the ideas of others as well in some random ramble response.

You will notice that I have copied my entire reply and added your points that you raised (in red). You will also notice that every point I made was a direct response to a point thet you raised.

If this is an example of how closely you examine information before commenting on it, I think we can see why you might believe this conspiracy nonsense.

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In the 3rd response you added theories that I have not stated mixed in with my comment.  What I am trying to open here is a discussion.  You have yet to show any of this conclusive evidence you are claiming.  By no means am I stating that so called Muslims were not involved.  What I am saying is that there is reasons to suspect the U.S. government if only at the military level, not to mention the CIA.  The CIA has been known to operate outside of U.S. sanctions before. 

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What you are saying faithi , has no basis in fact regarding 9/11 .What you are saying has been thoroughly debunked . What is the point of your "so called  discussion " unless you are simply refusing to accept the facts ?

 

 You do know that FACTS don't you ?   However it is rather obvious you can not accept them .

 

 All that occurred on 9/11 was caused , planned , and executed by Muslim fanatics .  There was no conspiracy on the part of "the US Military " , there was no conspiracy "on the part of the CIA " .

 

 The conclusive evidence is known worldwide and in the public domain . It is and has been available to you and others like you for 13 years now , and not a bit of it has proven to be false . So what is your point here faithi ?

 

You are not trying to open a discussion , you are attempting to start an argument . You have nothing , no proof , no evidence , not a single witness or participant of any plot indicating ANYONE involved  other than the fanatics who committed the heinous acts on 9/11 . There has never been found a trace of explosives , not a trace , no evidence of a controlled demolition ,  no evidence of damage to any building involved which has not been caused initially by the two airliners crashing into the towers ,and their subsequent collapse .

 

So what is your agenda here faithi ? To prove you are a good Muslim by rejecting what is already known , confirmed and verified ?

 

With this meaningless banter do you hope to garner approval for yourself by your peers ?

 

All you are doing is diminishing your own intellect ...and publicly .

Edited by Aligarr

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Thank you Aligarr for proving what I suspected already.  That the whole side of your argument was anti-Islamic and you feel that those objecting to 9/11 are just Muslims. News flash, Christians are saying the same thing.  Btw, it is a known fallacy to think that something is not true based simply on the notion that there is no evidence to support it.  Lack of evidence does not prove that something is wrong. 

 

I have never cared about the opinion of others.  Matter of fact, even in my teenage years I did not think about how I was viewed by others.  I realize this might seem foreign to you but once I get medical I might be able to explain why this is.

 

With all of that said I am not the one making accusations and flaming comments, you are. 

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In the 3rd response you added theories that I have not stated mixed in with my comment.  What I am trying to open here is a discussion.  You have yet to show any of this conclusive evidence you are claiming.  By no means am I stating that so called Muslims were not involved.  What I am saying is that there is reasons to suspect the U.S. government if only at the military level, not to mention the CIA.  The CIA has been known to operate outside of U.S. sanctions before. 

I was just trying to cover all the bases in point 3. The "it was the CIA/Military" accusation has quite a broad scope!

 

You made several points claiming to be an indication that the official explanation was not true. I have answered them all with either hard facts or reasonable explanations.

You are the one making the claims for a different version of events so you are the one who needs to show the evidence that this is so.

 

Can you give these "reasons to suspect the U.S. government if only at the military level, not to mention the CIA" that you claim exist?

 

There is a huge leap from supplying arms to South American right-wing revolutionaries or conducting assassinations against foreign government individuals, to knowingly arranging the murder of thousands of American citizens. And leaving no evidence of gov't involvement.

Edited by QED

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faithi , it wouldn't matter a bit if the savages involved in the 9/11 attacks were Christian , Hindu or Buddhist . This fanatical religious behavior permeates all religions .

 

 I have no problem accepting the heinous acts of Christians and they are legion . But to me all are no better than the Thuggees of India who killed millions before they were exterminated . There have been Christian cults who slaughtered innocents for the sole purpose of reaping the retribution which they welcomed as they believed themselves martyrs and heaven awaited them .

 

Your last post is nothing more than babble trying to defend a  position which is indefensible . .

 

And YOU have finally spit out what has been on your mind all along .

 

That for a non muslim to place blame for 9/11 on fellow Muslims no matter how misguided , is an expression of being anti-islamic .

 I never said that it was ONLY MUSLIMS who held your views . I made it clear that there are different groups with different agendas .-You have a short memory or deficient reading comprehension skills .

 

 I have made no "flaming comments " other than putting the facts on the table . You have had opportunity to refute the facts I listed with new information new FACTS  and bring them to light . All you offer is your opinion , and now your accusation that I am anti-Islamic .

 

It seems you can not handle the truth , nor have you any desire to know it . You can not follow the facts no matter where they lead . And that is a defect in character , thus nullifying any discussion on the subject you may have .

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When you make comments like I am suggesting these things in order to be a better Muslim that lends itself towards being anti-Islamic.  And repeatedly I have said that I am not erasing the possibility that it was simply psychotic radical Muslims followed a warped version of Islam.  What I am stating is that to erase the possibility of the involvement of other entities is flawed.  I cannot prove they did it, obviously.  Never did I state that I had such proof. 

 

But, I think that contributing these attacks to simply planes crashing into a building is giving too much credit.  I feel that the planes could not have had the full effect that was produced.  With that said though I have been researching Bin Laden more and there is reason to believe that he could have orchestrated such attacks as he did study civil engineering.  There is missing pieces to this whole thing though and that is the ultimate bottom-line.  All these various governments are stating that they are anti terrorists and yet Al Qaeda keeps getting funding and new groups are popping up.  With that said the largest funder, in history, to this particular group was the CIA during the proxy wars of Afghanistan. 

 

What I am referring to is the missing link.  Where is the funding coming from?  As I have stated before I am a logically minded individual in the classical Greek use of the word.  I do not review only in evidence/facts because facts can be missing/destroyed/hidden.  I also try to look at things objectively from various angles with an open mind.  I am not blind enough to view the U.S. as this great force for good that would never think of slaughtering American citizens as they have done it before.  As a nation that is leaning more and more towards a Hamilton style government we must consider the possibility that in a move to centralize power with the federal government more drastic actions could have been taken.  Historically most acts of terrorism are sponsored by the major nation. 

 

What facts have you posted? None.  I have not seen one link, only references to supposed proof.  You have posted nothing to your so called proofs other than the same rhetoric that is spewed forth from main stream media, that every rational person knows is biased to one side or another.

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This naivete which insists whatever the government and media said about 9/11 "must be true" - negating any other possibilities outside of it - is nothing but a new dogma, which its proponents here want us to accept on blind faith! There is no open mindedness there, just a constant repetition of the big lie - repeat it enough times so it "MUST" be true. Oh yeah, like government never lies? Like people high up in power don't cover up things and have secrets?

 

The bottom line, when it comes to wars and finding the justifications for wars, government - and by government I refer to the true economic powers wielding all the strings, and not just the corrupt bureaucrats at lower levels who have limited responsibilities - has CONSISTENTLY lied and used false flag events. USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods....just some examples.

 

There are certain people who have a cold personality, that they wouldn't let anything or anybody stand in their way wherever there's power or money to be made. The existence of psychopaths and sociopaths in positions of power is only too self-evident to anyone who isn't an ostrich....no offense to ostriches who at least don't put blind faith in government.

 

We are truly living in Orwellian times where the "official" establishment view has been turned into a dogma and the burden of proof is always on those who dispute it but never on the government to prove their version!

Edited by Suhaib85

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We are truly living in Orwellian times where the "official" establishment view has been turned into a dogma and the burden of proof is always on those who dispute it but never on the government to prove their version!

The burden of proof is always on the person asserting the claim. Whether it is science, philosophy or the law, that is how it works. Any system giving equal creedence to claims, regardless of weight of evidence, would be unworkable. Opinion and suspicion are not evidence, no matter how convinced the holder may be.

 

This naivete which insists whatever the government and media said about 9/11 "must be true"

There may well be people who take this simplistic view but the evidence points to certain events. It is a little like the evolution debate, the evidence just does not support the challenging claim. This may be uncomfortable fore some people but facts are not determined by emotion.

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Who is making the claim that Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and the hijackers acted alone?  mainstream media and the U.S. government. If the burden of proof is always on the person asserting the claim then the burden of proof is on them.  Thank you.  I agree with that statement.

 

My grandmother was a federal agent for the F.A.A. (based out of the Memphis office) and even she believes there is some flaws in the stories.  The really funny part is that no one trying to assert so called evidence is wanting to talk about the Pentagon incident.  I have pointed out what my argument is and therefore I consider my part in this conversation over unless someone has something new to add to this.

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Who is making the claim that Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and the hijackers acted alone?  mainstream media and the U.S. government. If the burden of proof is always on the person asserting the claim then the burden of proof is on them.  Thank you.  I agree with that statement.

 

My grandmother was a federal agent for the F.A.A. (based out of the Memphis office) and even she believes there is some flaws in the stories.  The really funny part is that no one trying to assert so called evidence is wanting to talk about the Pentagon incident.  I have pointed out what my argument is and therefore I consider my part in this conversation over unless someone has something new to add to this.

I think this thread has drifted away from the original topic somewhat. My position of established evidence and unsupported claims relates to the collapse of the buildings. I have no hard opinions on US Agency involvement with the organisations and individuals who perpetrated the attack as I have not studied the evidence of historical involvement, actions, motives, personnel etc. However, the default position must be that the Government was not directly involved in the actual attack although any supported claims to the contrary must be fully investigated. That is a different discussion though.

 

BTW, An organisation of highly motivated, well trained, organised and extremely well financed people is hardly "acting alone".

Also, "assertion" is used a declaration with no supporting evidence. If you make a case with supporting evidence it is not an assertion.

I am not familiar with your Pentagon argument. I am quite happy to talk about it though.

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