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Gods Covenants

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You of course are free to interpret Matthew 26 in any way you wish to :)

 

It doesn't change the fact that Jesus is telling them that His flesh and His blood seals the Covenant. The old covenant between God and his people had been ratified at Sinai by the blood of many victims you can find reference to this in Exodus 24:5-8 - Hebrews 8:8-13 - Hebrews 9:15 the blood of Christ shed upon the cross ratifies "the new or Christian covenant". Why then would Jesus be ratifying the Old Covenant?

 

Any links to - drinking of blood was a well-known practiced tradition. I would be interested in seeing :)

 

As you say we are all free to make of information that comes our way as we will. I'm content with that :)

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Paul says that it is a new covenant.  All that is in the words of Jesus, there is that it is for the covenant.  In the book of Exodus it refers to blood offering of animals not human sacrifices. I will have to get back with you on the blood drinking although you might want to reference various different religions that were around at the time.  Many of the mystic religions practiced this. 

 

I think the most likely explanation of this is the practice of Judaism.  Try looking up kiddush and chabura.  As to the my blood of the covenant commentary many think this was in fact added later. I believe this highly probable considering the considerable influence of Mithraism in the Roman world and the fact that Rome ultimately took over the Christian religion.  I can bring more details on the history of the eucharist in other religions as well tomorrow insha'Allah. 

 

I have said though what I believe, what I did and how I made my conclusions as it pertains to finding Islam as the truth.  Your path is your own. 

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Ah yes Paul, ;) I wondered when you'd bring Paul into the equation, it seems muslims in general seem to have an issue with Paul. If that was all there was in regards to Jesus and His blood linked to the covenant you may have something. I thought you said you used to be a Christian? You then would know it was Gods decree in the Old Testament that animals blood was used for a covering for sin before God. Why blood? Because our Blood is our life line. Without the Blood we are unable to function, maintain,live, breath or think. The Blood that runs through our veins is what keeps us alive. Without the Blood we are dead. Without the blood of Christ we are spiritually. dead. You are right human sacrifices were never right before God, yet God makes the rules, Jesus said -

 

John 10:17-18 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

 

Why did he choose to lay his life on the line for ours? No one took His life, he offered it freely according to the will of the Father. Whereas an animal will go unknowingly and even maybe unwillingly, Jesus went in full knowledge that makes it the greatest act of agape love shown to mankind from God. As a Christian I see this is Gods gift to me, I choose to accept it you rejected it, but as it's freely given there's no compulsion in the accepting or rejecting, we have free choice in the matter. I'm guessing you did not see things like this when you were a Christian, well that's fine at least you've found something which offers you a way to your own personal redemption.

 

I looked up Kiddush, no mention of blood. I found this on wiki,

 

The Torah refers to two requirements concerning Shabbat - to "keep it" and to "remember it" (shamor and zakhor). Jewish law therefore requires that Shabbat be observed in two respects. One must "keep it" by refraining from thirty-nine forbidden activities, and one must "remember it" by making special arrangements for the day, and specifically through the kiddush ceremony.

Reciting kiddush before the meal on the eve of Shabbat and Jewish holidays is thus a commandment from the Torah (as it is explained by the Oral Torah). Reciting kiddush before the morning meal on Shabbat and holidays is a requirement of rabbinic origin. Kiddush is not usually recited at the third meal on Shabbat, although Maimonides was of the opinion that wine should be drunk at this meal as well.

 

Chabura, a learning circle. Again no mention of blood.

 

Whilst many pagan religions would no doubt have used blood it's mainly supposition to imply that because the Romans may have done it so that's why the Christians did it. If it wasn't in the Bible then it wouldn't have relevance. Or are you saying that cheeky emperor Constantine rewrote it all to suit himself. ;) honestly please, don't even go there. :)

 

I respect your honesty when you explain how you found your path in Islam. I'm pleased you still have a faith in God, many lose faith completely and that's sad, :( as you say everyone is different and has there own path to find.

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The Edenic covenant or the covenant of works made between God and Adam had nothing to do with entering paradise on condition of worshipping God. Adam already resided in Paradise or as near to it, it was his breaking the covenant that got him expelled from the same to live his life on earth. 

 

After Adam, peace be upon him, got expelled from Paradise, he taught his children that by believing and obeying Allah, they will enter Paradise. I am not talking about the covenant that took place when Adam (pbuh) was in Paradise. I am talking about the one after he got expelled. If you don't believe Adam (pbuh) had a covenant, then that's your belief.

 

By the way, Islam has the final covenant. 

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After Adam, peace be upon him, got expelled from Paradise, he taught his children that by believing and obeying Allah, they will enter Paradise. I am not talking about the covenant that took place when Adam (pbuh) was in Paradise. I am talking about the one after he got expelled. If you don't believe Adam (pbuh) had a covenant, then that's your belief.

 

By the way, Islam has the final covenant.

Where did I say I did not believe Adam had a covenant with God? Christians know this first covenant as the Covenant of Works, or the Edenic Covenant. The Bible tells us there are two different types of covenants that God makes with men. Some are unconditional covenants, which God will keep regardless of man’s actions. Others are conditional in that man must obey the terms of the covenant in order to receive the promises related to it. The Edenic Covenant is a conditional covenant because Adam was required to obey the terms of the covenant in order to not suffer the consequences of breaking it. In the Edenic Covenant, God promises Adam life and blessing, but that promise is conditional upon Adam’s obedience to God’s command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam’s penalty for disobedience would be physical and spiritual death as well as a curse on the ground so that Adam would have to work harder to grow crops. One of the results of Adam’s sin was that he would have to toil all of his days until his death

 

God already knew Adam would break this covenant, how indeed could He not know. Yet this covenant plays an important part in the unfolding of God’s plan of redemption, as it shows man’s inability to maintain a right relationship with God even when he is in the earthly paradise that God created for him. Adam’s sin broke this conditional covenant with God and left man in a fallen state. God made another covenant with Adam, an unconditional covenant of redemption. It is the first promise of redemption and the first promise of Christ’s coming. God gives us hope of a Redeemer. God’s promise to Eve that the seed of the serpent would bruise the heel of the seed of Eve and the seed of Eve would bruise the head of the seed of the serpent, is the foretelling that Satan would wound Christ on the cross, but that Christ would triumph over Satan on that same cross.

 

So are you saying you follow the covenant God made with Adam? The Covenant of works (the first) was remade with the second, the Covenant of redemption. I don't think you follow that because as it tells of our redemption through Christ's death and subsequent eternal life, you obviously don't hold to that. So I'm not sure what covenant according to you, that God made with Adam that was Adam teaching his children to believing and obeying Allah was a way to paradise. I can only assume that your interpretation (from the Quran) of the covenant is different to what the previous scriptures taught.

 

I'm at a loss to understand what the final covenant is in Islam. Generally Gods covenants were similar in that they followed a pattern, for example the first covenant with Adam. I'm not sure that your explanation of the covenants muslims follow have the same, but maybe it does. Or perhaps it was more a promise rather than a covenant as such,

 

The Blessing - Their descendants will fill the earth and subdue it.

 

The Condition/Curse - Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil/death will result.

 

The Sign - The Sabbath - Keep it holy

 

The Family Form - Marriage

Edited by Tunisia

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beacuse i can immediatelly detect if it is ok site about Islam or not, they used shia-Islam , and shia Islam is not Islam it is own relgion for itself, wich has nothing to do with Islam. 

 

here is another verse about covenant

 

God says:

2.40. O Children of israel! Remember My favor that I bestowed upon you, and fulfill My covenant (which I made with you through your Prophets), so that I fulfill your covenant, and of Me alone be in awe and fear (in awareness of My Power and of your being My servants)

Are shia muslims not muslim ?

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Spiritlead. They are Muslims. Sunnis, shias, sufis, braelvis, etc. all consider each other to be Muslims. The consensus of the Muslim Ummah is that each and every one of these denominations are Muslims. Hajj (pilgrimage) is an example to that. The Amman message is an example to that. etc.

 

 

Plus, spreaking of my experience, I believe if one studies a faith, he needs to study and learn it with the subscribers of that faith. Otherwise, he will get misinformed and disinformed. So, we need to study and learn sunni Islam with sunnis, shia Islam with shias, sufi Islam with sufis, etc. So, asking a sunni about shia and vice versa, is senseless to me. Because the answers you'll get probably would be misinformation/dfisinformation supported by misquotes/misinterpretations/cherrypicking, etc. I am saying this because I studied both and more denominations of Islam. And I can see the ones arguing is doing that for nothing. They all have commonalities rather than the differences.

 

Anyway, as for the topic,

 

The first covenant I believe was made in another realm with all human beings. I mean in the realm of spirits during the assembly of Alast. (See, Quran, 7:172). And other covenants which were made in the history are in coherence with it. They are the reminders and reflections of the same covenant.

 

So, yes, there was and is the covenant of God with israelites (e.g. Quran, 2:83-84, 93, 5:12 and etc.). But as sister Tunisia suggested, there has been covenants with other people of the scriptures. Reminders of the same covenant (Quran, 3:81, 3:187, etc.). For instance Quran mentions God's covenant with Christians also. See, Quran, 5:14 for instance:

 

"And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant.."

 

And, same covenant was made with Muslims. Please see, Quran, 33:7

 

"And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from THEE (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant;"

 

Also Quran 5:7;

 

"And remember the favor of Allah upon you and His covenant with which He bound you when you said, "We hear and we obey"; and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts."

 

13:20

 

"Those who fulfil the promise of Allah and do not break the covenant,"

 

I hope this helps with your queries. ma salam :)

Edited by Dastan

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Greetings Dastan,

 

 

May I ask you please, why does this mean?

 

"And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant.."

 

Blessings

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For interpretation of Quranic verses, you can use this short Tafseer as a beginning:

 

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/quran/light/index_s.htm

 

Please refer to Surah/Chapter 5, verses 12-19; "The covenants with the Jews and the Christians".

 

And you can bookmark this tafseer for your future studies also. ma salam.

Greetings, thank you for the link. I am however a little puzzled, this from your link.

 

14. " And of those who say: ' We are Christians ' We did take their covenant, but they (also like israelites) have neglected a part of what they were admonished with. Therefore We have stirred up among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection; and soon Allah will inform them of what they have been doing."

 

Commentary:

 

In the previous verse, the words were about the breach of promise among the Children of israel. Now, in this verse, the statement is upon the preach of promise among the Christians. That verse introduced almost all the israelites as breachers of promise, (except a few of them) . But, in this verse, from the beginning, it separates a part of the Christians as breachers of promise when it says:

 

" ... of those who say: ' We are Christians' ..."

 

Am I to understand from this that God "took away" the covenant from Christians because they broke some aspects of it? This does not make sense because the New Covenant (and final Covenant) mediated with Jesus, was unconditional in nature. So how can the Christians be guilty of breaking the conditions of the covenant when God did not impose conditions upon them? It's not clear what Covenant it's referring to, but it has to be the New Covenant, because it was the last unconditional covenant that applied to all mankind and not just the children of israel.

 

Blessings

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There is no such thing as unconditional in a covenant. Because covenant is an agreement based on regulations/conditions. Please look up the meaning of covenant in the dictionary:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/covenant

 

 

noun
1.
an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
2.
Law. an incidental clause in such an agreement.
3.
Ecclesiastical. a solemn agreement between the members of a church to act together in harmony with the precepts of the gospel.
4.
(initial capital letter) History/Historical.
National Covenant.
Solemn League and Covenant.
5.
Bible.
the conditional promises made to humanity by God, as revealed in Scripture.
the agreement between God and the ancient israelites, in which God promised to protect them IF they kept His law and were faithful to Him.
6.
Law.
a formal agreement of legal validity, especially one under seal.
an early English form of action in suits involving sealed contracts.
7.
Covenant of the League of Nations.

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/covenant

 

 

cov•e•nant (ˈkʌv ə nənt) 
 
n.
1. an agreement, usu. formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
2. the conditional promises made to humanity by God, as revealed in Scripture.
3. a formal agreement of legal validity, esp. one under seal.

 

It would not be called a covenant if it were unconditional. And it would not be logical or justice if it were unconditional.

 

And it is clear what the covenant is referring to unless you skipped the previous verses (12 and 13).

 

So, in short, a covenant is an agreement and promise between Allah and his servants based on certain CONDITIONS. And Allah does not take away the covenant, rather it is the servants who, in Biblical terms, play the harlot, and break the covenant. And Quran also stresses on this a lot that Allah is not the side returning from them. But it is the nations who break the covenant/promises themselves. E.g.

 

"..God changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts; and if God willeth misfortune for a folk (over their changing/braking the covenant) there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender beside Him." (Holy Quran, 13:11)

 

So, the covenant is there for all servants of God. And covenant is conditional. And God does not break it unless the people break it themselves. If a nation breaks it, God replaces them with another nation (see, Quran, 5:54) and this is the tradition of God that never changes.

 

ma salam

Edited by Dastan

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Greetings Dastan, that there is no such thing as unconditional covenants may be your belief, but it is not what the Bible teaches, and obviously as a Christian, I go by what God decreed therein. The Bible speaks of seven different covenants, four of which (Abrahamic, Palestinian, Mosaic, Davidic) God made with the nation of israel. Of those four, three are unconditional in nature, that is to say regardless of israel's obedience or disobedience, God still will fulfill these covenants with israel. One of the covenants, the Mosaic Covenant, is conditional in nature. That is, this covenant will bring either blessing or cursing depending on israel's obedience or disobedience. Three of the covenants (Adamic, Noahic, New) are made between God and mankind in general, and are not limited to the nation of israel.

 

The Noahic Covenant was an unconditional covenant between God and Noah (specifically) and humanity (generally).

 

The Mosaic Covenant was a conditional covenant that either brought God's direct blessing for obedience or God's direct cursing for disobedience upon the nation of israel. Part of the Mosaic Covenant was the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Law.

 

The New Covenant (the final covenant) is a covenant made first with the nation of israel and, ultimately, with all mankind and is unconditional, Now that we are under the New Covenant, we can be free from the penalty of the Law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift.

 

I guess we see covenants differently :) it's been a difficult thing for me to find information about the covenant between God and muslims, it does not seem like Mohammed mediated a covenant in the same way as the Biblical covenants were mediated by certain Prophets. From what I found its like you take parts of different covenants. However, this thread is old news now, at the time of query it was important for me to know if any covenant existed for muslims for my fiancee was a Muslim at the time, he is now a Christian and my husband :) just to add, his becoming a Christian was not of my making as it did not bother me what religion he was as I love him for the man he is. He was not happy as a Muslim for many years, even before he met me.

 

Still if you would like to discuss covenants we could, I've always found them interesting from a biblical perspective. It would be interesting to hear how you view covenants or distinguish them from promises.

 

I can't imagine God would be so unjust to remove a covenant from a nation and give it to another nation. This makes little sense, and goes against Gods nature as unchanging.

 

Btw .. I did not skip verses 12 or 13. :)

 

Blessings

Edited by Tunisia

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1- We are not speaking of "Bible". This is an Islamic website. And you claim to study Islam.

 

2- You don't even understand the covenant in dictionary. How can you understand it in scripture?

 

3- Of course you would not find any covenant between God and believers because you limit your studies to your church, and choose not to study Islamic sources.

 

4- I don't care about your family life. You should not talk about it to strangers either. It is none of our business. Just be committed to your husband and study religion with him and not with others.

 

5- God's traditions are unchanging. His covenant. But not the adressees of the covenant. They change. If a nation goes against the conditions of the covenants and breaks it, God replaces them with another nation. However, it is possible FEW or SOME of the earlier nation stick to the covenant. In that case, they are added to the adressees. See, first verses of Surah al-Isra talking about if jews repent and if not.

 

6- No you must have skipped it, or you must have misinterpreted it knowingly. Because, otherwise you would realize that, the terms  "taking covenant"  does not mean taking it away. rather it means "making a covenant". The covenant is there for all the subscribers of Abrahamic faiths. But, if individuals turn away from it and break it, they are not the adressees of the covenant any more and it includes fasiq Muslims too. If the condition of the covenant is discarded, the promise of God is discarded also.

 

7-  Anyway, it seems you are not here to study Islam. Rather you are here to preach "Bible".

 

In any case, you won't be studying the religious sources even if I shared, so good luck with your life.

Edited by Dastan

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1- We are not speaking of "Bible". This is an Islamic website. And you claim to study Islam.

 

2- You don't even understand the covenant in dictionary. How can you understand it in scripture?

 

3- Of course you would not find any covenant between God and believers because you limit your studies to your church, and choose not to study Islamic sources.

 

4- I don't care about your family life. You should not talk about it to strangers either. It is none of our business. Just be committed to your husband and study religion with him and not with others.

 

5- God's traditions are unchanging. His covenant. But not the adressees of the covenant. They change. If a nation goes against the conditions of the covenants and breaks it, God replaces them with another nation. However, it is possible FEW or SOME of the earlier nation stick to the covenant. In that case, they are added to the adressees. See, first verses of Surah al-Isra talking about if jews repent and if not.

 

6- Anyway, it seems you are not here to study Islam. Rather you are here to preach "Bible".

 

In any case, you won't be studying the religious sources even if I shared, so good luck with your life.

Accept my apologies, it appears I have offended you in some way, by the rudeness of tone in your post. I am not here to preach and I resent you saying I am. I welcome all sources of knowledge. It's ok, we have no need to talk again, I was only being friendly.

 

Blessings

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On one hand I have to give you credit as that is a good response.  On the other hand I have to respectfully disagree on the interpretation of this.  It never says there is a new covenant but simply the covenant.  Now, of course, a lot of this goes back to symbology and is never meant to be taken literally.  To me, this is about Jesus (pbuh) telling them to follow him as the drinking of blood was a well-known practiced tradition. 

 

“So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." – Exodus 24:8

 

Moses never said “new covenant” either yet Jews affirm this was a new covenant made between God and his people.

 

 

Notice the similarity between Moses’ and Jesus’ words? They both say “blood of the covenant”

 

“Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” – Matthew 26:27-28

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Yes, but which Covenant? God made many covenants with the children of israel. Is there any more than what you just said? It's not much to go on really.

 

According to the Torah, G-d made one eternal covenant with the Children of israel - at mount Sinai in front of the whole nation. (This was the first and only national revelation.) Muslims do not claim to part of the covenant between Gd and the Jews as Younes explained... Ishmaelites were not present at Sinai, and it clearly states the covenant is between G-d and the nation of israel (i.e. descendants of Jacob which Arabs are not)

 

We're not part of a Jewish covenant. Our covenant with Allah is to obey Him. It doesn't get much simpler than that. What obedience entails is described in the Qur'an. Among other things it entails praying, fasting, giving Zakah, etc.  

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According to the Torah, G-d made one eternal covenant with the Children of israel - at mount Sinai in front of the whole nation. (This was the first and only national revelation.) Muslims do not claim to part of the covenant between Gd and the Jews as Younes explained... Ishmaelites were not present at Sinai, and it clearly states the covenant is between G-d and the nation of israel (i.e. descendants of Jacob which Arabs are not)

I understand God will make a new, international covenant when the Messiah comes. Is this also your understanding?

Edited by Gods Servant

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