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The Quran Explains The Quran

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As I study the Quran I find many places in which it explains itself and defends itself against any attacks that might happen. Here is how I understand these verses:


 


== The Qualities of the Quran


 


4:82 - The Quran has no contradictions within itself


10:15 - The Quran is clear and not changeable


15:9 and 41:41 - The Quran cannot be corrupted


26:195 - The Quran is written in plain (Arabic) language


39:23 - The Quran repeats some parts many times


43:2 and 43:3 - The Quran is clear and understandable


69:51 - The Quran is true and certain


86:13 - The Quran contains the strict laws (of Islam)


 


== About Muhammad and the Quran


 


6:105 - The Quran is not a plagiarism 


12:111 - The Quran is not a forgery


25:4 - The Quran is not a lie, it is not invented by Muhammad


81:22 - Muhammad is not a madman


 


Do you think I have understood these passages correctly?

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Alhamdulillah, My long journey to God ended with the reading of one verse from the Qur'an. 2:2.   It was earth-shattering & total euphoria together the moment i read it.

 

This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance, for those who are God-conscious. 2.2

 

Is it truly God you are seeking?  He doesn't seem to be part of the equation in your post above.

Edited by abu Ahmad

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As I study the Quran I find many places in which it explains itself and defends itself against any attacks that might happen. Here is how I understand these verses:

 

== The Qualities of the Quran

 

4:82 - The Quran has no contradictions within itself

10:15 - The Quran is clear and not changeable

15:9 and 41:41 - The Quran cannot be corrupted

26:195 - The Quran is written in plain (Arabic) language

39:23 - The Quran repeats some parts many times

43:2 and 43:3 - The Quran is clear and understandable

69:51 - The Quran is true and certain

86:13 - The Quran contains the strict laws (of Islam)

 

== About Muhammad and the Quran

 

6:105 - The Quran is not a plagiarism 

12:111 - The Quran is not a forgery

25:4 - The Quran is not a lie, it is not invented by Muhammad

81:22 - Muhammad is not a madman

 

Do you think I have understood these passages correctly?

 

yes

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After six days, no one has disagreed with these conclusions. 

 

So, if we can say that the Quran is true, clear, understandable, and complete, then why are the Hadith needed at all? It would almost seem that the Hadith were created by people who didn't agree that the Quran is true, clear, understandable and complete?

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After six days, no one has disagreed with these conclusions. 

 

So, if we can say that the Quran is true, clear, understandable, and complete, then why are the Hadith needed at all? It would almost seem that the Hadith were created by people who didn't agree that the Quran is true, clear, understandable and complete?

 

no , hadith is needed for details

 

for example

 

Quran says you have to do daily prayers, you have to pay obligatory tax. but dont mentions how.

 

while hadith explains to you in details how you shall preform prayers and how much tax you shall pay.

 

hadith is saying of prophet Muhammed

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no , hadith is needed for details

 

for example

 

Quran says you have to do daily prayers, you have to pay obligatory tax. but dont mentions how.

 

while hadith explains to you in details how you shall preform prayers and how much tax you shall pay.

 

hadith is saying of prophet Muhammed

So, in essence, the Hadith are man-made laws and as such, carry no divine weight?

This is what I have been thinking, as one of the things I was uncomfortable about was the obsession with the Hadith when they are just the records of what a man said, not whay God said. In this respect, I feel that the Quranists have a version closer to what God intended.

It seems to me that as long as you are not contradicting anything in the Quran, you can ignore the Hadith.

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"For this We sent a Messenger to you from among you to recite our Verses to you and purify you and teach you the Book and Wisdom and teach you things you did not know before." (Qur'an 2:151)

 

The Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah, was sent to teach the Book. He wasn't merely sent to recite the Book. Let's take a normal study book. The book is clear. Does that mean that there is no need for a teacher? No need for additional detail? I don't think so. In a similar way, the Prophet (pbuh) was sent to teach the Book, and that does not make the Qur'an unclear. 

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So, in essence, the Hadith are man-made laws and as such, carry no divine weight?

 

No, the words of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah, have been recorded in hadiths. The Qur'an instructs to obey the Messenger of Allah. So no, the hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) aren't man-made laws. 

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No, the words of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah, have been recorded in hadiths. The Qur'an instructs to obey the Messenger of Allah. So no, the hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) aren't man-made laws. 

The Quran is the complete and unchangeable, revealed word of God. Everything that came after came from the minds of men. The Hadith cannot be from God, inspired by Him possibly, but not His word. I have seen people discussing Hadith which appear to contradict each other. If we follow the Quran alone, surely there can be no contradiction?

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The Quran is the complete and unchangeable, revealed word of God. Everything that came after came from the minds of men. The Hadith cannot be from God, inspired by Him possibly, but not His word. I have seen people discussing Hadith which appear to contradict each other. If we follow the Quran alone, surely there can be no contradiction?

 

The words of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, were inspired by Allah. 

 

If we follow the Qur'an alone, we won't know even know how to pray. Besides, we would be going against the words of the Qur'an itself, as it says to obey the Messenger of Allah (pbuh). So, if you leave what the Messenger of Allah ordered, you are disobeying Allah. If you follow him, you are obeying Allah.

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 If we follow the Qur'an alone, we won't know even know how to pray.

If the Quran does not tell us how to pray, then it does not matter how we do it. It is obviously sufficint to Allah that we pray, the details are not important to him, only to men. By ascribing the will of God to the utterances of men, we are bestowing a divininty on them which surely goes against the Quran, which is the complete and unchangeable revealed word of God. How can men then say, "Oh, this is what God meant." How can men presume to know God's mind? Remember that Muhammed was just a man. The Quran was dictated to him by the Angel Gabriel. Everything after that is the will of man. When the Quran says that we should obey the messenger it means that we should obey the message (the Quran), not everything that he said after revelation. Remember that he was just a mortal man like you and me!

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If the Quran does not tell us how to pray, then it does not matter how we do it. It is obviously sufficint to Allah that we pray, the details are not important to him, only to men. By ascribing the will of God to the utterances of men, we are bestowing a divininty on them which surely goes against the Quran, which is the complete and unchangeable revealed word of God. How can men then say, "Oh, this is what God meant." How can men presume to know God's mind? Remember that Muhammed was just a man. The Quran was dictated to him by the Angel Gabriel. Everything after that is the will of man. When the Quran says that we should obey the messenger it means that we should obey the message (the Quran), not everything that he said after revelation. Remember that he was just a mortal man like you and me!

 

He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them.) (Surah 4, verse 80)

 

(64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah's leave. If they, when they were unjust to themselves, had come to you and begged Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them, indeed, they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) (65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.) (From Surah 4

 

 

Yes, the Prophet (pbuh) was a mortal man. However, Allah had given him authority to teach the religion and has commanded us to obey him. The Prophet (pbuh) taught us our religion. If you do not want to follow his words, here is a warning for you:

 

(62. The believers are only those who believe in Allah and His Messenger; and when they are with him on some common matter, they go not away until they have asked his permission. Verily, those who ask your permission, those are they who (really) believe in Allah and His Messenger. So if they ask your permission for some affairs of theirs, give permission to whom you will of them, and ask Allah for their forgiveness. Truly, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

(63. Make not the calling of the Messenger among you as your calling one of another. Allah knows those of you who slip away under shelter. And let those beware who oppose the Messenger's commandment, lest some Fitnah should befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.)

 

If you choose to discard what the Messenger has commanded us in our religion, you obviously have problem not only with the Messenger of Allah but the Qur'an itself. The people who disobey the Messenger of Allah will end up in this condition:

 

66. On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.'' (Surah 33)

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He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them.) (Surah 4, verse 80)

 

(64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah's leave. If they, when they were unjust to themselves, had come to you and begged Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them, indeed, they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) (65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.) (From Surah 4

 

 

Yes, the Prophet (pbuh) was a mortal man. However, Allah had given him authority to teach the religion and has commanded us to obey him. The Prophet (pbuh) taught us our religion. If you do not want to follow his words, here is a warning for you:

 

(62. The believers are only those who believe in Allah and His Messenger; and when they are with him on some common matter, they go not away until they have asked his permission. Verily, those who ask your permission, those are they who (really) believe in Allah and His Messenger. So if they ask your permission for some affairs of theirs, give permission to whom you will of them, and ask Allah for their forgiveness. Truly, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

(63. Make not the calling of the Messenger among you as your calling one of another. Allah knows those of you who slip away under shelter. And let those beware who oppose the Messenger's commandment, lest some Fitnah should befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.)

 

If you choose to discard what the Messenger has commanded us in our religion, you obviously have problem not only with the Messenger of Allah but the Qur'an itself. The people who disobey the Messenger of Allah will end up in this condition:

 

66. On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.'' (Surah 33)

It just seems logical that if we need the Hadith as additions and clarifications to the Quran, then the Quran is incomplete and unclear. As this cannot be the case, the Hadith are therefore uneccessary. The Quran is the message and by obeying it, you obey the messenger.

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It just seems logical that if we need the Hadith as additions and clarifications to the Quran, then the Quran is incomplete and unclear. As this cannot be the case, the Hadith are therefore uneccessary. The Quran is the message and by obeying it, you obey the messenger.

 

Hajj is [during] well-known months, (2:197)

 

And remember Allah during the Appointed Days. But whosoever hastens to leave in two days, there is no sin on him and whosoever stays on, there is no sin on him, if his aim is to do good and obey Allah (fear Him), and know that you will surely be gathered unto Him. (2:203)

 

. Verily, the number of months with Allah is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allah on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred. That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein,  (9:36)

 

The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path."

 

And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

 

(2:142-143)

 

Do you know during which months the Hajj is just by reading the Qur'an? Do you know what the appointed days are? Do you know which months are sacred? Which Qiblah did the Muslims used to face before Allah commanded to face Masjid al-Haram? Do you know the answer to these just by reading the Qur'an?

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I tend to agree with QEDs logic. But either way, I would hope that we can say that the Quran can never be wrong. In other words, if some Imams say that the Hadith provides *extra details* not provided by the Quran, that could be okay. But shouldn't we be suspicious if any of the Hadith disagrees with the Quran?

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But shouldn't we be suspicious if any of the Hadith disagrees with the Quran?

 

There is no disagreement between the Qur'an and the authentic hadiths. 

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Do you know during which months the Hajj is just by reading the Qur'an? Do you know what the appointed days are? Do you know which months are sacred? Which Qiblah did the Muslims used to face before Allah commanded to face Masjid al-Haram? Do you know the answer to these just by reading the Qur'an?

The Quran states that it is both clear and complete. You are saying that this is not so!

Also, both Sahih Muslim & Ibn Hanbal reported the Prophet as saying "Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an". (A bit of a paradox, I know. Hadith forbidding Hadith!)

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[at]IceHorse & QED
Like you said, Hadith is not words of God. Its words of the prophet, but not man-made. because its inspired by God.

This discussion is a bit confusing. Its as if you agree to the Quran, and the only thing that holds you from believing in Islam is the hadith. If so, why don't you embrace Islam for now, and worry about the fine details later? True Muslims have no problem at all with following the sunnah of our beloved prophet.

Or is it just for the sake of argument you're after?

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The Quran states that it is both clear and complete. You are saying that this is not so!

Also, both Sahih Muslim & Ibn Hanbal reported the Prophet as saying "Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an". (A bit of a paradox, I know. Hadith forbidding Hadith!)

 

No, I am not saying that the Qur'an is not clear. The Qur'an tells us that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) is our teacher. We find the answer to the above questions from his life. For example, Allah says in the Qur'an that He made the first Qiblah in order to see who would follow the Messenger and who turn on his heels - yet there is no command in the Qur'an ordering the Muslims to face Jerusalem. So, why did the Muslims face Jerusalem? Because the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) told them to as he was a teacher inspired by Allah.

 

As for the Hadith you quoted: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_from_hadith_in_which_the_prophet_says__do_not_write_down_anything_from_me_except_qur_an__

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Younes, I think I have a good idea from you, thanks.

 

dot, Happy New Year!

 

I'm not trying to argue, but sometimes the best way to learn is to discuss the edges and the difficult concepts.

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This illustrates what I am thinking. Thousands of words written about it and still no definitive answer. Treat the Hadith as a kind of commentary which is not binding, then fine. But I juat get the feeling that they are now treated with equal reverance to the Quran by some. This seems to go against the message of the Quran. Just my opinion, but one from a position that has not been brought up with an established belief framework.

I have been doing some reading about the Quranists and they have what seems like a very grounded view about this. However, I have also seen that there appears to be some animosity (although not as much as with Shia). How serious and deeply held is this schism? It does not seem like they are saying anything that goes against the Quran. On the contrary, they seem to be sticking to the letter, as I see it.

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This illustrates what I am thinking. Thousands of words written about it and still no definitive answer. Treat the Hadith as a kind of commentary which is not binding, then fine. But I juat get the feeling that they are now treated with equal reverance to the Quran by some. This seems to go against the message of the Quran. Just my opinion, but one from a position that has not been brought up with an established belief framework.

I have been doing some reading about the Quranists and they have what seems like a very grounded view about this. However, I have also seen that there appears to be some animosity (although not as much as with Shia). How serious and deeply held is this schism? It does not seem like they are saying anything that goes against the Quran. On the contrary, they seem to be sticking to the letter, as I see it.

 

Many Qur'anists actually follow a false Messenger called Rashad Khalifa. This person decided to remove two verses from the Qur'an claiming they weren't part of the original, i.e. the Qur'an was corrupt all this time until Rashad came along in the 20th century. They are definitely not Muslims.

 

The problem with Quranists is that they don't have a link back to the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah. They don't have a chain of transmission for the Qur'an! Traditional Muslims do have a chain of transmission for the Qur'an, i.e. there are modern day scholars who have been taught by somebody who was taught by somebody reaching all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). And let's face it, the Qur'an was transmitted by traditional Muslims, not by so called Quranists.

 

The Qur'anist approach is really a minimalist approach, an approach of a simpleton. It creates many more problems than it solves. For example, a Quranist won't be able to answer the questions I asked you  by using the Qur'an only.  Back in the Prophet's (pbuh) day, he would have been the first person to turn on his heels when the Qiblah was changed to the direction of Masjid al-Haram. As a matter of fact, using the Quranist approach, a person would not even have faced the previous Qiblah as there is no command in the Qur'an ordering the Muslims to face the previous Qiblah - yet Allah says that He ordered the previous Qiblah!

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Many Qur'anists actually follow a false Messenger called Rashad Khalifa. This person decided to remove two verses from the Qur'an claiming they weren't part of the original, i.e. the Qur'an was corrupt all this time until Rashad came along in the 20th century. They are definitely not Muslims.

So the problem is more the version of the Quran they use than the actual philosophy of treating the Quran as the only divine source of guidance?

This brings up another problem I have experienced. Which version to use? I have been using the Al-Hillal/Khan version (it was given to me) but someone on here advised me against it. Is there a version which is accepted at accurate and faithful? (There is no way that I have the time to learn classical Arabic, so I am stuck with translations!).

 

For example, a Quranist won't be able to answer the questions I asked you  by using the Qur'an only.

I am leaning towards the idea that if it is not specified in the Quran, why can it not be a matter of personal conscience?

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So the problem is more the version of the Quran they use than the actual philosophy of treating the Quran as the only divine source of guidance?

This brings up another problem I have experienced. Which version to use? I have been using the Al-Hillal/Khan version (it was given to me) but someone on here advised me against it. Is there a version which is accepted at accurate and faithful? (There is no way that I have the time to learn classical Arabic, so I am stuck with translations!).

I am leaning towards the idea that if it is not specified in the Quran, why can it not be a matter of personal conscience?

 

No, both their "version" of the Qur'an, which misses two verses, and the fact that they treat the Qur'an as the only source of Divine guidance is problematic.

 

I haven't read al-Hillah/Khan's translation. I think Pickthall's is quite good, but I don't think Khan's can be that bad unless otherwise specified. 

 

The Qur'an says that the Hajj is during well-known months. Since when something well-known becomes a matter of every single individual's personal conscience? The Qur'an says four months are sacred. Is that a matter of personal conscience? The Qur'an says to remember Allah during the appointed days. Since when something appointed becomes a matter of personal conscience?  

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