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Crazy Dream- Call To Islam?

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I came from Catholicism, where one could go to a priest, confess sins, and have them magically wiped away. I view the Shahada as similar to a Baptism in Chirstianity, where you are "reborn" in a sense for having accepted the oneness of Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) as his prophet.

Maybe that is your error, believing mortal men have the power to wipe away your sin. The oneness of God is the same in all the Abrahamic religions, there is no rebirth to be found in a mortal man, or belief in any one prophet.

 

My fiancée a Muslim who has recently found Christ and embraced Christianity has just been baptised into the church. :) he does not believe this gives him automatic forgiveness of sin, but sees Jesus as the way to God the Father who is the only One who can forgive our sin.

 

I am sorry that you could not see this, but am pleased for you that you feel your path to God is through Islam. :) any path is better than no path ;) although they may not all have the same gaurantees. :)

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PropellerAds

 any path is better than no path

Not sure about this. It depends where that path leads you.

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When someone becomes a Muslim, it is Allah Al-Mighty who forgives all his past sins, not any human. He is granted a clean slate, like that of a new born baby.

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If it means that I am absolved of all my bad deeds, then yes, of course I mean it.

 

Not all bad deeds, only the past ones. You will be accountable for future sins, in case you sinned after becoming a Muslim.

But anyway, seeking forgiveness for your past sins shouldn't be the only reason to say the shahada. But if you believe that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is his messenger, then you're officially a Muslim.

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 I have also done the same thing with Catholicism, just to be sure... However, I don't believe in a lot of what both religions say and require. I hope I still get forgiveness.

 

When it comes to religions, cheating doesn't work. Your goal seems to reap the fruit without seeding the plant. You cannot cheat your God, QED.

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Not sure about this. It depends where that path leads you.

If it leads you to God then that's ok. Religions are not the way to God they are a means to show you how you yourself can make yourself right with God. Most of the petty rules found in religions are from the minds of men, that's evident because they serve mans purpose not Gods.

 

That's why all this refuting nonsense is a waste of time, not to mention the my religion is better than yours is an even bigger waste of time. Like God is concerned with the minutiae of our earthly lives. Gods given us clear intrinsic understanding of what is right and wrong He leaves the choice to us as to how we go about it. Personally for me I see that revealed through His Word, Jesus, others choose differently. :)

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Not all bad deeds, only the past ones. You will be accountable for future sins, in case you sinned after becoming a Muslim.

But anyway, seeking forgiveness for your past sins shouldn't be the only reason to say the shahada. But if you believe that there is no god by Allah, and that Muhammad is his messenger, then you're officially a Muslim.

The first part makes no sense to me whatsoever. In order for your past sins to be wiped clean you have swear by a mortal man. Why is just believing in the One True God not enough? Edited by Tunisia

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If you believe in God, you should believe in his messengers. Believing in God and not one of his messengers makes you anything but a Muslim.

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But if you believe that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is his messenger, then you're officially a Muslim.

I believe in a universal, transcendental presence. However, after much reading and discussion I am fairly convinced that Islam is just another human concoction. Muhammad may possibly have had some kind of transcendental experiene but it seems pretty clear from the evidence that most of what followed is another version of the same social and political control construct.

 

I could never officially be a "Muslim" because of some of the appalling requirements of the system. It is partly these illogical rules (which are a common denominator of ALL religions) which indicate Islam to be no different from the rest. It would be far more convincing without the requirements to treat other humans as less than equal.

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You don't just say shahadah to get rid of your past sins as dot has said. By saying it you embrace Islam as a way of life. Allah knows the intentions of people who say it. It forgives us for our past sins if we truly believe in Islam because before we found Islam we were ignorant of the Islamic way of life. There are many converts who will tell you what they did in their past was so different from the way they live their life now and if they had only known about Islam then, they wouldn't have done some things. This does not mean we are sinless forever, humans make mistakes, but as long as we are in the fold of Islam and ask Allah to forgive us we are much better off. 

 

[at]Tunisia - we believe Muhammad is a messenger of God that is why his name is included in the shahadah. He taught us what is Islam so of course we must accept that we believe in him. By believing in Him we also accept all the other prophets. We do not however exalt him to a level like Christians do with Jesus. Anyone who assigns god like features to any prophet of God falls outside the teachings of Islam. 

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[at]Tunisia - we believe Muhammad is a messenger of God that is why his name is included in the shahadah. He taught us what is Islam so of course we must accept that we believe in him. By believing in Him we also accept all the other prophets. We do not however exalt him to a level like Christians do with Jesus. Anyone who assigns god like features to any prophet of God falls outside the teachings of Islam. 

Interesting reply thank you. Why do you have to mention Mohammed as a Prophet along side that of God when taking the shahada? Why is Mohammed above others in honoured this way? Believing in Mohammed as Prophet you may see as a kind of acceptance of past prophets, but if Mohammed brought a different message to the others then really you are not accepting the previous revelations as truth only Mohammed's. Which is fair enough because you are Muslim, but don't say by accepting Mohammed as prophet means automatic acceptance to all that went before, that's not accurate. I find it strange that you do not see that by mentioning Mohammed's name along side that of God does in a way elevate Mohammed to a position of exaltation above all other prophets and even the Messiah.

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 but if Mohammed brought a different message to the others then really you are not accepting the previous revelations

 

Its not a different message Tunisia. All messengers of God brought the same consistent message. That is clear, because the author is the same, God Al-Mighty. You may find it different, but that's because the scriptures of those other religions were tampered with over time. The core original divine message was always the same, from Adam to Muhammad, peace and blessings upon them all.

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Its not a different message Tunisia. All messengers of God brought the same consistent message. That is clear, because the author is the same, God Al-Mighty. You may find it different, but that's because the scriptures of those other religions were tampered with over time. The core original divine message was always the same, from Adam to Muhammad, peace and blessings upon them all.

This claim of tampering with scriptures over time, I'm guessing you have irrefutable proof of such a sweeping statement. ;)

 

And no, the core message is not the same, the core message is about mankind's redemption from sin and making oneself right before the One True God and the Quran has a totally different message in this regard. The author may be the same, but you should maybe say that God sent a different message for muslims to follow. Apart of course the obvious one that being there is but ONE God. :) on that we can agree.

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Agree with what dot has said and to add Muhammad pbuh was a prophet sent to all of mankind unlike previous prophets which we Muslims believe were sent to particular nations or communities. 

And I find it strange that you think a sentence which clearly says we believe Muhammad is a messenger of God elevates him to the level of God! 

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 I find it strange that you think a sentence which clearly says we believe Muhammad is a messenger of God elevates him to the level of God! 

 

I think some Christians like to repeat that weird accusation to us Muslims. Perhaps because it makes them more comfortable, trying to imagine they're not the only ones that think of their prophet as god!

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Christians do not view Jesus as a prophet . They do believe He was God Incarnate ., and their Savior ...The Messiah .

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Agree with what dot has said and to add Muhammad pbuh was a prophet sent to all of mankind unlike previous prophets which we Muslims believe were sent to particular nations or communities. 

And I find it strange that you think a sentence which clearly says we believe Muhammad is a messenger of God elevates him to the level of God! 

Excuse me, where did I say you elevate Mohammed to a level of God? I said by having to mention Mohammed's name in the shahada ALONG side God, appears to elevate Mohammed above other prophets and the Messiah. Mohammed is certainly no where near the level of God. He was a mortal man was he not? And as such had a sinful nature as all mortal men have, so of course it is impossible for Mohammed to be anywhere near God in the exhalation stakes. As you claim not to distinguish between the prophets and hold them all in equal esteem then, I don't know how you make allowances for that. But that's for you to decide upon.

 

I find it hard to see how Mohammed's revelation was for all of mankind, especially as it is so entrenched in Arab culture, not that there is anything wrong with Arab culture, before you get the wrong end of the stick again. :) but in order to understand the Mohammed's revelation the better one ought to understand Arabic, then it does rather rule out a large proportion of mankind. Unless for the non Arabic speaking muslims it's acceptable to get a slightly different and possibly inferior version (translation) of the revelation. Then I guess it may work for some.

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I think some Christians like to repeat that weird accusation to us Muslims. Perhaps because it makes them more comfortable, trying to imagine they're not the only ones that think of their prophet as god!

It's not an accusation, weird or otherwise, it's an observation of how it appears to a non Muslim. If Christians thought of Jesus as just another prophet in a long line of prophets then you might have some kind of point, as we don't see Jesus this way then you don't have a point. I am perfectly comfortable in viewing Christ Jesus as Christ Jesus revealed Himself to me and I don't need to compare that to how you may choose to view Mohammed. I was making a simple observation, as it appeared to me if that's not allowed then fair enough we can end it here. No hard feelings. :)

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Excuse me, where did I say you elevate Mohammed to a level of God? I said by having to mention Mohammed's name in the shahada ALONG side God, appears to elevate Mohammed above other prophets and the Messiah. Mohammed is certainly no where near the level of God. He was a mortal man was he not? And as such had a sinful nature as all mortal men have, so of course it is impossible for Mohammed to be anywhere near God in the exhalation stakes. As you claim not to distinguish between the prophets and hold them all in equal esteem then, I don't know how you make allowances for that. But that's for you to decide upon.

 

Hello Tunisia

 

1# Muhammad (saw) was the final messenger of Allah

2# Muhammad (saw) was sent for all of mankind

2# By believing in Muhammad (saw) you believe in the previous prophets.

4# If you don't believe in Muhammad (saw) you are also questioning the message he brought

 

 

I find it hard to see how Mohammed's revelation was for all of mankind, especially as it is so entrenched in Arab culture,

 

How so?

 

but in order to understand the Mohammed's revelation the better one ought to understand Arabic, then it does rather rule out a large proportion of mankind. Unless for the non Arabic speaking muslims it's acceptable to get a slightly different and possibly inferior version (translation) of the revelation.

 

So you have a problem that the Quran was revelead in arabic?

 

What's your opinion about bible then? You do know that it's orignal language surely wasn't english? :D

Edited by Hoopoe

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To add to what brother Hoopoe mentioned, only 15% of Muslims are Arabs, so obviously 85% of Muslims worldwide didn't find a linguistic problem in Islam.

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I think some Christians like to repeat that weird accusation to us Muslims. Perhaps because it makes them more comfortable, trying to imagine they're not the only ones that think of their prophet as god!

To a non-Muslim, is is clear that Muhammed is venerated to a level comparable to many a minor deity. The fact that you have to say certain words after his name, can't depict him or even  criticise him on pain of death, are all noteworthy. I know that according to Islam, he is no different from any of the other prophets and they must all be treated with the same respect but I don't see much fuss when people draw caracatures of the other Abrahamic prohpets. I don't remember any protests at school nativity plays or whenever "The Ten Commandments" are on TV, nor do I expect there to be Muslims threatening volence on the makers of "Noah".  There is a fine line between veneration and worship and I think, for many people, that line has been crossed.

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 So you have a problem that the Quran was revelead in arabic?

My problem is being regularly told that I can't properly understand, analyse or critique the Quran unless I can read it in Arabic. This is not the case with other religious texts. I am never told that I need to read the Bible in Aramaic or Greek, or the Torah in Hebrew or the Vedas in Sanskrit in order to properly understand them.

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What one needs to comprehend is that understanding the Qur'an means to understand correctly what is being told in the verses, the concepts, lessons, signs, admonitions metaphors and imagery.

All of these aspects  of the Qur'an hold true regardless of the language used. 

One may even be in possession of great Arabic skills, yet be incapable of understanding the verses due to his or her lack of comprehension of what is being told in the verses.

 

Hence not everyone gets guided- but the Arabic language has been made easy on the tongue.

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What one needs to comprehend is that understanding the Qur'an means to understand correctly what is being told in the verses, the concepts, lessons, signs, admonitions metaphors and imagery.

All of these aspects  of the Qur'an hold true regardless of the language used.

Ah, this is useful. So the particular translation used, for instance, is not important. It's whether you understand the underlying message.

I have often thought that the quibbling over the meanings of particular words seemed somewhat removed from the idea of a universally understandable, divine message.

 

Is there a definitive reference that gives the correct interpretation of the imagery, metaphors, etc, or is it more of a subjective approach where individuals can take their own message?

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 Hello Tunisia 1# Muhammad (saw) was the final messenger of Allah2# Muhammad (saw) was sent for all of mankind2# By believing in Muhammad (saw) you believe in the previous prophets.4# If you don't believe in Muhammad (saw) you are also questioning the message he brought

Hello Hoopoe,

 

In your opinion as a Muslim the above points 1-4 apply to, well, muslims. :) which is fine as a non Muslim I am not obliged to agree. I started off my interest in Islam with enthusiasm, but as time has gone on and the more I read the Quran the more I struggle with seeing it as what it claims to be. The final revelation to mankind. It does not bring anything new to what gone before.

 

  How so?  

It does rather seem that those who convert to Islam, maybe women more so than men, adopt the Arabic culture, dress etc. it seems the norm for many to emulate Mohammed in lifestyle changes etc. this is only little old me observation. :) feel free to dismiss it as a nonsense.

 

So you have a problem that the Quran was revelead in arabic?What's your opinion about bible then? You do know that it's orignal language surely wasn't english? :D

Nope, no problem at all. Mohammed the prophet of Islam was an Arab, Arabic or a version of it was the language of the area on that basis it would be pretty darn odd if the Quran was revealed in Chinese don't you think? I shall ignore your factious comment about the Bibles original language. As if there is a Christian anywhere that does not know what languages the Bible was first revealed in. For sure it was not English :) however, as QED says in his post above, I'm not told that I need to speak Hebrew, Aramaic or koine Greek to understand perfectly the message contained within the Bible. It seems it's muslims have issue with the language, on one hand it clear if a non Muslim questions something that does not make sense it then becomes " well, you really need to know Arabic in order to understand it the better". I have been told this on many occasion.

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