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Crazy Dream- Call To Islam?

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I argue that a great "design" is one in which the design "fulfills the intended person of the designer".

This is just the ad hoc rationalisation of "god works in mysterious ways". It does not explain why, if we are designed by an omnipotent creator, we have so many design faults. If you got the best craftsman in the world to build you a wardrobe and the doors did not shut properly, would you say "well, he must have designed it that way, I can still put clothes in it", or would you expext him to fix it or give you a refund? To simply say, "oh, he designed us that way on purpose" is neither a logical nor satisfactory respone. It merely raises more questions. Why would he deliberately do a bad job? Why would he consciously design so much unecessary suffering into the world? Why deliberately design viruses and parasites that have no purpose other than to reproduce, and in doing so, cause incredible suffering? It's not a case of wanting to know the mind of the creator, more wanting to know why it just doesn't make any sense.

 

In a nutshell: They say a perfect design is that which allows survival -we say: No - a perfect design for us is that which fulfills the intended purpose of the designer!!

No. Perfection, in this instance, was used as evidence that it could not have happened by any other process than a benevolent, intelligent designer.  If your answer is that "perfection" is just about any condition that we observe (smallpox virus, guinea worm, congenital disorders, natural disasters etc, etc), then it renders the term meaningless. Even worse, under your scenario these defects and dangers are all part of Allah's design and thus it would surely be wrong to fight against them. However, if the designer wants to see the needless suffering of millions of innocents (esp. children and babies) then your explanation fits perfectly.

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PropellerAds

 Have you read the biography of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) ? 

I bought a copy of "the Sealed Nectar " but as yet have not read it. Personal demands on my time, ( wedding preparations mainly yay) have meant reading it has been put on the back burner.

 

Also who do you believe this prophet to be?Deuteronomy 18:18 I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

This refers to Jesus. If you look at it in biblical context, which you have to do with biblical evidence if you are to be honest, it can only apply to Jesus as He said ~

 

John 5:39-40

 

39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

 

John 5:41-47

 

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

 

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

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The thing is in order to understand the Bible, or any book for that matter, you need to understand the original language. You don't personally have to understand the language, but somebody better understand it.

Exactly, someone better understand it. So we have already heard it is not necessary to understand Arabic in order to grasp the message of the Quran, I'm guessing then you have trust in the translators to accurately transcribe every word so that nothing of the original language is lost.

 

Well, what I have gotten from the Jewish vs. Christian debates is that Christians do not understand Hebrew or try to misrepresent it. In other words, the Jews are telling you do not understand the Bible. Is that considered a fail? 

I guessing the Jewish participants would be saying that. However, if one is to make accusations that all Christian scholars from the beginning have been intellectually dishonest with the handling of scripture then they had better come forth with some cast iron proof of such a claim. It's ridiculous to say that no one other than a Jew can understand Hebrew.

 

You misunderstand what I meant by a fail what I said was ~ If Gods Word can't be understood in any language to be found in the world, then that's a fail. Meaning that if God sent His Message to mankind that lost all meaning when translated into other languages then God fails in His purpose. Can you see how ridiculous that scenario would be? Jesus said to tell the Gospel to all creation, that must include multiple languages so it's clear to me that Gods Word is the same in any language and not confined to one.

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This is just the ad hoc rationalisation of "god works in mysterious ways". It does not explain why, if we are designed by an omnipotent creator, we have so many design faults. If you got the best craftsman in the world to build you a wardrobe and the doors did not shut properly, would you say "well, he must have designed it that way, I can still put clothes in it", or would you expext him to fix it or give you a refund? To simply say, "oh, he designed us that way on purpose" is neither a logical nor satisfactory respone. It merely raises more questions. Why would he deliberately do a bad job? Why would he consciously design so much unecessary suffering into the world? Why deliberately design viruses and parasites that have no purpose other than to reproduce, and in doing so, cause incredible suffering? It's not a case of wanting to know the mind of the creator, more wanting to know why it just doesn't make any sense.

No. Perfection, in this instance, was used as evidence that it could not have happened by any other process than a benevolent, intelligent designer.  If your answer is that "perfection" is just about any condition that we observe (smallpox virus, guinea worm, congenital disorders, natural disasters etc, etc), then it renders the term meaningless. Even worse, under your scenario these defects and dangers are all part of Allah's design and thus it would surely be wrong to fight against them. However, if the designer wants to see the needless suffering of millions of innocents (esp. children and babies) then your explanation fits perfectly.

I don't know if you misunderstood my post?

 

To state something is poorly designed then what exactly is perfection? What basis are you using.

 

The intended purpose of this world (to permit life) is fulfilled- to start saying somethings don't work etc then your thinking is a utopia world- which does't exist.

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I don't know if you misunderstood my post?

 

To state something is poorly designed then what exactly is perfection? What basis are you using.

 

The intended purpose of this world (to permit life) is fulfilled- to start saying somethings don't work etc then your thinking is a utopia world- which does't exist.

I think I understood it.

 

First of all. Who determines when a design is "poor" or "great"

That would be the user.

 

I argue that a great "design" is one in which the design "fulfills the intended person of the designer".

A design must fulfill its purpose to the satisfaction of the user, not the designer.

 

Example : Imagine a bomb exploded - someone says: OMG it exploded -it must have been a terrible design!!!! you say: no wait- it was "designed to be exploded" - as a matter of fact - it's a perfect design -because it exactly fulfilled the purpose of it's design.

Very poor example. No one would say that a bomb that exploded was a terrible design. That's what they are designed to do. Are you saying that humans were designed to die from choking because we use the same passage to both eat and breathe (for example)? Humans are not "designed" to die from anything other than old age (perhaps you could argue that self-sacrifice to protect offspring might also apply). Any other form of death is a mistake. You could  argue that we were "designed" to die from all these terrible ailments and horrible diseases and avoidable accidents, but that would surely be the work of a deranged designer.

 

Perfection does not mean utopic perfection, but practical perfection. In other words, it's "as good as it gets".

Perfect is not a concept that has degrees. It is a superlative adjective. Things aren't "fairly perfect" or "a little bit perfect".

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.

2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.

3. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation

Your argument is a non sequitur

 

Perfection was brought by another poster citing the perfection in the world as evidence of a creator and is of little import to the argument.

 

Personally, I think that there is little, if any perfection (ie. cannot be improved upon) in the world. This is to be expected if everything is a product of natural processes. However, if it has been designed by an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator who is capable of perfection by definition (as Islam & Christianity insist) why would he design it at less than his ability and then make those design errors look EXACTLY like they had arisen by natural processes? The Creator hypothesis just demands to many unsupported assumptions and Occam's Razor would have us discard it.

 

The intended purpose of this world (to permit life) is fulfilled- to start saying somethings don't work etc then your thinking is a utopia world- which does't exist.

I do not claim nor expect perfection. It is an impossibility under natural processes. I do not even expect perfection from a creator, but I would expect a design that did not have dangerous design flaws. Every time cells divide there is the potential for cancerous growth. Every time we eat there is the chance of choking.

 

Human childbirth is very long, very difficult, excruiciatingly painful and dangerous compared to other mammals because the baby's head is too large and the pelvic opening is too small. Why is this? Is it because the creator deliberately designed human childbirth worse than in all other mammals, or is it because by evolving to walk upright, the hips changed shape and the pelvic opening narrowed and also our evolved increased brain size requires foetuses to have larger skulls at birth (these changes can be seen in the fossil record)? What do you think? 

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