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Crucifiction Of Jesus

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It could be because they don't wish to upset the boat, that is to say, they can't think they may be wrong. It's like the old Bible corruption stuff muslims go on about. There is zero proof of these claims and when asked to show proof it's like the bits of the Bible that agrees with the Quran is ok and everything else is corrupted. Then we have silly scenarios like claiming one part of a book (Deuteronomy) for example says Mohammed is a prophet but a few verses later in the same book a verse proves that Mohammed could not have been a prophet. Also book of Isaiah used to prophecy Mohammed when the Quran doesn't even mention Isaiah as a prophet!!! Honestly there is no sense to using the Bible to validate mohammed as a prophet because he is not mentioned anywhere.

 

So as to provoking critical thinking then I wish you good luck with that, there has to be a degree of open mindness, you'll not find much of that I don't think. Besides it seems very quiet on this forum, like everyone is on a permanent holiday :)

 

Tunisia, Al-Jazeerah says that in africa alone 6 MILLIONS of muslims leave Islam each year...so i suppose the critical mind did work for them when they saw miracles manifested by christians and the god of Islam doing nothing and never proving he ever existed...

Jesus sent us to preach the good news- the gospel and if that task was to be fruitless and we could not fulfil it then Jesus would never want us to lose our time...

those who are mocking are mainly those who seek for excuses to not do what they have to or they simply hide behind what is convenient to them

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PropellerAds

Exactly so Aligarr, without the spirit people many people go through the motions of following a religion, but that is not the way to salvation. Jesus said we are not saved by the law.. So adhering to religious rules don't count for much. That may not sound as I wish it to say. Not that rules or laws in themselves are useless or not relevant. Just that we cannot be redeemed before God just by following rules.

 

I see Islam as a religion is governed by "rules" but when I look at some of them I struggle to see why such a thing would be important to a holy God or in any way enrich our spirit. They are however a good measure of control over its believers. I don't see God as contained in any one religion but is accessible to all who embrace His Spirit. Lol, I know what I mean but maybe I'm not explaining it very well. :)

 

Great words of wisdom sister! :)

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We have read the same Bible and I believe your statement to be in error

 

Could it be possible your interpretation of the bible is wrong?

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the Bible is very clear on most of the topics. especially that Jesus tells us that in order to form a doctrine the Bible has to talk explicitly on the subject at least twice.

God speaks to us in a simple way and if He wants to make something clear or underline a truth He repeats it time after time after time.

That is why there is 28!! prophecies on the crucifixion.....quite a few to ignore or to misunderstand....

the Bible is a prophetic Book since God only knows the end from the beginning...and He predicts to us what He intended to do. He tells us that He PROVES to us who He is by showing us the truth in advance...and by power...

Allah/Islam/Muhammad never predicted, prophecied one thing that would come true and Allah/Muhammd never made one miracle...

that shows it all............

God is etiher GOD (powerful, miraculous, almighty) or he is only a word on paper....

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God's Servant , it's not a matter of " my interpretation " , it is a matter of what is universally accepted ,as to the meaning of the words that were translated , what they meant in their context .

 Peter said REPENT and be saved , the physical act of water Baptism was a means of identification with Christ . The ACT of repentance ,or if you will faith expressed in the authority of Jesus to forgive sins .

 Taking into account all verses in the New Testament referring to  salvation and baptism , I find it remarkable that anyone who is well versed in that study , to conclude that water baptism is a requirement of salvation . Faith in Jesus ALWAYS precedes Baptism , Repentance ALWAYS precedes and in fact supercedes Baptism .

 

 What you are saying is , if one accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior ,as the singular means of salvation and does not get Baptized by Water , then that person is not saved ? 

 

With all due respect God's Servant , I would politely suggest to you to search out all verses regarding salvation and baptism found in the Christian verses , keeping in mind that the four gospels were spoken explicitly to Jews ,for Jews, and by Jews . Fortunately for all who wish to delve into translation , the writings were in what is called koine which is a form of Common Greek , still used today , which correctly relates what is being said . Although there is variance in all of the versions of the Christian Bible , the contextual meaning is not lost .

 

Do you believe in infantile baptism ?   I will guess on that , since it is a Roman Catholic Practice , most likely stemming from the question of what if an infant dies before acknowledging and accepting Jesus . Should the infnt survive it is certyainly no guarantee that the child will accept Christ as Lord and Savior .  In that I rest on the knowledge of the Mercy of a Loving God . Surely any infant dying , baptized or not , would not be subject to such a requirement .

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BTW Tunisia , that was very well put , and completely understandable .[ And True ]

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God's Servant , it's not a matter of " my interpretation " , it is a matter of what is universally accepted ,as to the meaning of the words that were translated , what they meant in their context .

 Peter said REPENT and be saved , the physical act of water Baptism was a means of identification with Christ . The ACT of repentance ,or if you will faith expressed in the authority of Jesus to forgive sins .

 Taking into account all verses in the New Testament referring to  salvation and baptism , I find it remarkable that anyone who is well versed in that study , to conclude that water baptism is a requirement of salvation . Faith in Jesus ALWAYS precedes Baptism , Repentance ALWAYS precedes and in fact supercedes Baptism .

 

 What you are saying is , if one accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior ,as the singular means of salvation and does not get Baptized by Water , then that person is not saved ? 

 

With all due respect God's Servant , I would politely suggest to you to search out all verses regarding salvation and baptism found in the Christian verses , keeping in mind that the four gospels were spoken explicitly to Jews ,for Jews, and by Jews . Fortunately for all who wish to delve into translation , the writings were in what is called koine which is a form of Common Greek , still used today , which correctly relates what is being said . Although there is variance in all of the versions of the Christian Bible , the contextual meaning is not lost .

 

Do you believe in infantile baptism ?   I will guess on that , since it is a Roman Catholic Practice , most likely stemming from the question of what if an infant dies before acknowledging and accepting Jesus . Should the infnt survive it is certyainly no guarantee that the child will accept Christ as Lord and Savior .  In that I rest on the knowledge of the Mercy of a Loving God . Surely any infant dying , baptized or not , would not be subject to such a requirement .

Majority of Christians accept baptism.

 

See this link below for bible verses.

 

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-II

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God's Servant , it is irrelevant to me what the majority of Christians accept . The majority of Christians do not engage in extensive study of the Bible and are guided primarily by their particular sect or denomination .

 I know what I read , and I have verified translations of what I have read . Roman Catholics are notoriously inept at this , since they are instructed by dogma taught by their clergy from a young age . This makes them easy prey for false doctrine . The daily missle has replaced the bible , and only portions are read at Mass. The Catholic Bible adds a few books and eliminates others , by whose decision ? Men ? A Pope ? 

  But Catholics are no exception in embracing man made doctrine and dogma . Many converts to other faiths come from the ranks of Roman Catholics . And that is most likely due to contradictions discovered when they do eventually study the Bible in earnest .However , in my opinion it matters not what particular denomination nor sect one may be born into or convert to as long as they know the truth .  In this respect each man is personally responsible for his own salvation .  

 As to the verses regarding Baptism , I have read them all , and in their context . I have cited those that indicate , baptism is in fact not a requirement of salvation , but rather , faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior , followed by repentance of one's sins , and subsequent outward sign of baptism .

 If you are indeed a catholic , I have no desire to dissuade you of your beliefs , no more than I would a Pentecostal , nor Baptist , although there is much in Catholic Doctrine I disagree with .The central core belief of Followers of the Way , is faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior . Salvations rests upon that .

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The Catholic Bible adds a few books and eliminates others , by whose decision ? Men ? A Pope ? 

 

Who decided the inspired books you read as canon? You?

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catholics can only add or remove a verse in their own Bibles, in their own printed versions but they cannot change the manusxripts....

so they simply have their own book. anything important tday is called the Bible...the fashion bible, the style bible  etc..

so when catholics add something or remove it they do it against what God said in His own word (rev 22:18-19)  where He FORBADE to add even one word to the cmpleted message of the Bible and completed work of Jesus through the cross and resurrection which also proves that koran and Islam and Muhammad's words are all intiGod since God did not ALLOW any other messagew to be added to what He already said and complted in the Bible...

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catholics can only add or remove a verse in their own Bibles, in their own printed versions but they cannot change the manusxripts....

so they simply have their own book. anything important tday is called the Bible...the fashion bible, the style bible  etc..

so when catholics add something or remove it they do it against what God said in His own word (rev 22:18-19)  where He FORBADE to add even one word to the cmpleted message of the Bible and completed work of Jesus through the cross and resurrection which also proves that koran and Islam and Muhammad's words are all intiGod since God did not ALLOW any other messagew to be added to what He already said and complted in the Bible...

Same question goes for you - who decided the books of the bible you read are inspired?

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Here's a hint God's Servant . Read them all ,including the Apocrypha , and decide for yourself . Who oversaw the original Canon at Nicea ?    LOL.,..A Roman Emperor . Can you sit there with a straight face and tell me the Popes were infallible , ex-Cathedra or otherwise ?

  You have my sympathy if you are stuck in Roman Catholic Dogma . [Or any other denomination or sect for that matter .] You do know that Jesus wrote nothing ....right ? 

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Here's a hint God's Servant . Read them all ,including the Apocrypha , and decide for yourself . Who oversaw the original Canon at Nicea ?    LOL.,..A Roman Emperor . Can you sit there with a straight face and tell me the Popes were infallible , ex-Cathedra or otherwise ?

  You have my sympathy if you are stuck in Roman Catholic Dogma . [Or any other denomination or sect for that matter .] You do know that Jesus wrote nothing ....right ? 

 

You didn’t answer my question. I repeat - Who decided the inspired books you read as canon? You?

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First off God's Servant , I did answer you , I told you I read them all . But let me instruct you on your use of the word Canon which means "rules " and how that is applied to what  books were accepted as bible canon.

 

A canon is a list of books considered authoritative and/or inspired by a particular religious group . -Jewish Rabbis and scholars etc. By 250 A.D. Old Testament Canon was agreed upon .

 

In the days of the apostles Paul considered Luke's writings inspired / Peter considered Paul's writings inspired . Clement of Rome in 95 A.D. authorized atleast 8 of the N.T. Books . Ignatius of Antioch atleast 7 books by 115 A.D. Polycarp a disciple of John acknowledged atleast 15 books by 108 A.D.  Ireneus  acknowledged 21 books as inspired by 185 A.D.  Hippolytos the same 21 between 170 -235 A.D.

 

The Council of Laodicea ruled that only the Old Testament and 27 books of the N.T. were to be read in Churches . Subsequently the Councils of Hippo and Carthage agreed on that same 27 books .  The councils of Hippo and Carthage had agreed upon the Canon of the Septuagint [ Greek Translation  ] whereas the Council of Trent had agreed upon the  Canon of Vulgate [ Latin Translation ] in 1546 A.D. In that Council was given the Tridentine Decrees , more or less reaffirming Hippo and Carthage , and that is where the  Catholic Bible saw it's first complete version .

   There were several more Councils and clarifications that followed , but in this discussion they are irrelevant unless strict doctrinal adherence on several issues is to be discussed .

 

So your question is really a non-sequitur since " what Canon " really means what books " and "which books are considered to be inspired " according to what  authority . At the Council of Nicaea ,which was presided over by Constantine in 325A.D.  , the main issue of Arianism was dealt with, in that certain books were in effect eliminated and destroyed publicly, as they implied  Christ was all man  . This issue was dividing the Church .

 

Therefore your question was answered by me , the first time you asked : "which Canon did I read " ?   All of them . If you are asking which I considered Canon ?  I did not decide the accepted Canon . I did not determine  those considered inspired , someone else did . There are atleast  7 versions of the Bible , all more or less in agreement , and none contradicting the other , their difference being in general parlance of the English Language. .

 

So there is the Old Testament , the Old Testament Apocrypha , and the New Testament - I have read and studied all three . So what is your point ?   Do you consider the book of Acts  as Inspired ?  If so , then if your still stuck on the issue of water baptism as a requirement of salvation , then your argument fails . Do you consider all the books  of the New Testament as inspired ?

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You’ve misunderstood my question. You stated rhetorically books
were edited by men or even the pope in post #83 so I asked you how do you know
which books are inspired since you do not trust these men. Did you decide for
yourself which books are inspired? The bible canon you have in your hands today
was handed down to you by MEN before you. So what makes it any different??


 

 


 

Are you a scholar sir? Can you read and write Hebrew and
Greek?


 

 


 

I don’t need a history lesson. I know the history of the
councils which is against you. Your belief has no basis in history. Baptism was
practiced by the early Christians. There is an unbroken line of apostolic succession
so your Protestant related beliefs has no place only until the last 400-500 years.

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LOL....I'm not Protestant ,  nice guess . Just showing you the irrelevance of your question as it relates to the issue we are debating - water baptism as a requirement for salvation . I did not say anything about editing any of the books , I stated that some were excluded and other added , and as far as The Bible I know you've read , that includes the books and verses that destroys your argument .

 

 I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar , but I know how to pick up a book on the translations of those languages , and one need not be one to understand what is written . Your Catholic Bible is no different than other versions aside from an additional book or two , so we are reading the same verses . Any book on New or Old Testament survey will give the original meaning of the words translated ,from the Greek , Latin or Hebrew , with great accuracy . So what it comes down to is a matter of what you choose to believe . In that case of Catholic , Cathechetical teaching takes precedence ,as to what is accepted as dogma . And you , will follow that dogma , according to your denomination , which in your case is  obviously Catholicism .

 

However regardless of denomination , any of them which have as their dogma , that  Christ is the only way to salvation , with or without Baptism , and that salvation can never be lost , I would be in agreement with that denomination , minus of course all their traditional  dogma .

 

There are several issues in Catholicism as well as several other denominations that I could take issue  with and soundly defeat in debate , but they are not relevant to our discussion . These are all peripheral issues , and are not the serious deep core of the Everlasting Gospel . That message was simple and required no priests or bishops or popes , the message was for the common man , there is no secret or coded message for the learned and privileged . I am not Lutheran either , but it is no wonder Luthor broke away from the Church in Rome with their Popes and paid indulgences etc .

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You didn’t answer my question. I repeat - Who decided the inspired books you read as canon? You?

God's Servant: who decided? God decided about it. God chose people whom He inspired and moved through and chose the right ones. apocrypha were added later so and it is not regarded the Word of God by any other church buut catholics. but all 66 books of the Bible are the Wordof God respected by the whole christian world.

God uses people. To make miracles and to inspire them to write what HE wanted to say to the world.

wasnt it the same with Muhammad according to Islam? it wasnt even Allah who talked to Muhammad since Muhammad thougth he was demon possessed and wanted to kill himself but Islam says an angel spoke to Muhammad. according to the Bible it CANNOT be true since God FORBADE to add a single word to the completed message of the Bible and completed work of Jesus on the cross which shows Muhammad to be a false prophet and Islam a fraud too. such are facts.

 

If one were to conceive 50 specific prophecies about a person in the future, whom one would never meet, just what's the likelihood that this person will fulfill all 50 of the predictions? How much less would this likelihood be if 25 of these predictions were about what other people would do to him, and were completely beyond his control? probability of Jesus fulfilling only eight prophecies about Him is 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!the fulfillement of 48 prophecies would be 1000000...... (157 zeros!!) and how many prophecies did Jesus perfectly fulfil in His life? over 400! The Bible is true!!. Allah/muhammad never prophecied a single prophecy that would come true!http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

 

 

 

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http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/credibility_text.htm

 

as to the credibility of koran and Islam - they stand on the life of Muhammad- a man who came over 600 years AFTER Jesus already said who He is (God) and after Jesus died on the cross which is a historical FACT, after Jesus made miracles and influenced the world and lived the most holy pure sinless blessing life ever. then Muhammad came - a man who neveer made one miracle to prove he was from God, a man who married a child (6 year old child who was losing teeth, who was playing with dolls and whose father did not want to give her to Muhamad asa wife but who can resist a man who had soldiers around him and was ready to kill?), a man who killed hundreds upon hundreds of people, a man who married many women though Jesus taught clearly on monogamous marriage and so in the eyes of God polygamy is adultery, a man who introduced a new religion and a new god (Allah) and that god never proved a word he said, and never made miracles and never speaks, heals or delivers since he has no contact with people so all muslim followes have is only words of Muhammad...

think about it..

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LOL....I'm not Protestant ,  nice guess . Just showing you the irrelevance of your question as it relates to the issue we are debating - water baptism as a requirement for salvation . I did not say anything about editing any of the books , I stated that some were excluded and other added , and as far as The Bible I know you've read , that includes the books and verses that destroys your argument .

 

 I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar , but I know how to pick up a book on the translations of those languages , and one need not be one to understand what is written . Your Catholic Bible is no different than other versions aside from an additional book or two , so we are reading the same verses . Any book on New or Old Testament survey will give the original meaning of the words translated ,from the Greek , Latin or Hebrew , with great accuracy . So what it comes down to is a matter of what you choose to believe . In that case of Catholic , Cathechetical teaching takes precedence ,as to what is accepted as dogma . And you , will follow that dogma , according to your denomination , which in your case is  obviously Catholicism .

 

However regardless of denomination , any of them which have as their dogma , that  Christ is the only way to salvation , with or without Baptism , and that salvation can never be lost , I would be in agreement with that denomination , minus of course all their traditional  dogma .

 

There are several issues in Catholicism as well as several other denominations that I could take issue  with and soundly defeat in debate , but they are not relevant to our discussion . These are all peripheral issues , and are not the serious deep core of the Everlasting Gospel . That message was simple and required no priests or bishops or popes , the message was for the common man , there is no secret or coded message for the learned and privileged . I am not Lutheran either , but it is no wonder Luthor broke away from the Church in Rome with their Popes and paid indulgences etc .

 

I didn’t say you were Protestant, I was referring to your

Protestant related belief. There’s a difference.

 

 

 

 

 

Destroy my argument? Here “Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be

baptized, every one of

you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins”- Acts

2:38

 

 

 

 

 

Like

I said, baptism was practiced by the early Christians. You have no historical

basis nor are your interpretations of the verses you provided correct. You sir

can make mistakes…a little humility can go a long way.

 

 

 

 

 

I love it how you accept the NT bible canon from the Catholic Church but reject

the church’s teaching. It’s like me visiting your family, accepting your mother’s

hospitality but turning my back toward your mother…how silly is that??

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Lastly I like would like to reaffirm you cannot deny the
bishops are successors to the apostles in the unbroken chain of apostolic
succession. They teach with authority. You have no authority. I’ve met many
non-denominational Christians like you and you all have one thing in common,
hard heartedness and arrogance. No matter what I say will change your mind.
Even the miracles God performs through his saints will change your stone heart.
Look at a recent saint in our modern time, St Pio. He has performed miracles
while he was still alive, will that change your mind? Nope, there’s no way you
will see through your own “superior mind” that no is all or at least knows
enough…or just maybe needs to empty his cup before listening to what Catholics
have to say.


 

 


 

God be with you. Good bye.

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Spoken like a true Roman Catholic . All who die in Christ are saints , not those determined by Popes .  If the Pope wields such authority and infallibility , what have you to say about the most recent rejection by "Bishops " of the Pope welcoming gays ?

 

 So as you choose what you will believe , and who has authority,  and what dogma you conform to , is really a matter of your own choice.

  Your attitude is really enlightening , since you snipe at those who disagree with your view . I've stated my view , and it matters not what you believe . I take exception to your dogmatic interpretation of what any man can read for himself . And I do not consider myself "superior " in any way . If anything , more open minded about study of the Bible , in that I am not constrained by the dogma of organized Religion , and a denomination such as yours which in fact teaches it is above all others . LOL .."superior " as you put it .

 At the end of the day , I'm sure Jesus is not really concerned regarding the nuances of any particular sect or denomination , but only in the soul that has been moved by the Spirit to repent and accept him as Lord and Savior .  When you die he will not be checking for labels . If you believe that , I'll see you later .

 

BTW , I have a personal friend who was in fact as a young child, brought to and healed by Padre Pio  in Italy, and has spent the remaining years of his life writing songs about him and retelling his personal experience .

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Lastly I like would like to reaffirm you cannot deny the

bishops are successors to the apostles in the unbroken chain of apostolic

succession. They teach with authority. You have no authority. I’ve met many

non-denominational Christians like you and you all have one thing in common,

hard heartedness and arrogance. No matter what I say will change your mind.

Even the miracles God performs through his saints will change your stone heart.

Look at a recent saint in our modern time, St Pio. He has performed miracles

while he was still alive, will that change your mind? Nope, there’s no way you

will see through your own “superior mind” that no is all or at least knows

enough…or just maybe needs to empty his cup before listening to what Catholics

have to say.

 

 

 

 

 

God be with you. Good bye.

God's Servant: catholics need salvation just as muslims and all the rest of the world. it is not the church that saves us but Jesus saved us 2000years ago. in heaven there will be no catholics, protestant muslims but children of God. if the pope did not receive Jesus as his Lord and Savior or mother Theresa, or Muhammad or any other known or unknown person then even if they lived a good life they will go to hell because we are saved not by the church, organization, good works but only by the blood of Jesus shed for us and instead of us on the cross. Jesus saved us 2000 years ago before we were ever born, before we ever did anything good or bad. the Bible was written by childen of God. catholicism was established 4th centuries later. apostles Peter, Paul, John and all others were not catholics.

 

yes, miracles prove that God is real and He is God. Allah never proved he exists, never performed miracles and the same with the life of Muhamad who never made one miracle and who denied all what Jesus said He is (God) and came to do (die on the cross) and rejected the teaching of Jesus: monogamous marriage, love, purity, and instead he married a child (pedophilia), he had many wves (adultery), he killed many people even though Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek and love our enemies.

Jesus is the center of the Bible. It is all about Jesus. that is why satan wants to discredit Jesus and move people away from the faith in Jesus and salvation Jesus purchased for us with His own blood on the cross and in that place satan brings all kinds of religions (Islam, buddhism, sects, cults) or ceremonies and rituals performed in the catholic church or all other churches which dont base their life SOLELY on what Jesus did for the world.

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Spoken like a true Roman Catholic . All who die in Christ are saints , not those determined by Popes .  If the Pope wields such authority and infallibility , what have you to say about the most recent rejection by "Bishops " of the Pope welcoming gays ?

 

 So as you choose what you will believe , and who has authority,  and what dogma you conform to , is really a matter of your own choice.

  Your attitude is really enlightening , since you snipe at those who disagree with your view . I've stated my view , and it matters not what you believe . I take exception to your dogmatic interpretation of what any man can read for himself . And I do not consider myself "superior " in any way . If anything , more open minded about study of the Bible , in that I am not constrained by the dogma of organized Religion , and a denomination such as yours which in fact teaches it is above all others . LOL .."superior " as you put it .

 At the end of the day , I'm sure Jesus is not really concerned regarding the nuances of any particular sect or denomination , but only in the soul that has been moved by the Spirit to repent and accept him as Lord and Savior .  When you die he will not be checking for labels . If you believe that , I'll see you later .

 

BTW , I have a personal friend who was in fact as a young child, brought to and healed by Padre Pio  in Italy, and has spent the remaining years of his life writing songs about him and retelling his personal experience .

Aligarr,

I was a roman catholic and i live in a catholic nation and i left catholic religion years ago because it is as much antichrist religion as Islam is. the only difference is that Islam denies divinity of Jesus but catholicism denies other things and worships human beings (so called saints) equally as God and secondly, the catholic church not only follows the only true Word of God giving it priority but adds to the Bible their traditions, apocryphas and esteems the opinion of the popes at the same level as the Word of God.

God has us for His children and in heaven there will be no catholics or protestants but only those who are born again and indwelled by God who made them sons and daugthers.

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As I said to God's Servant kometa 2 , God will not check for labels . Never believed in the doctrine of papal Infallibility , too many Popes were warriors and were more politically inclined than spiritually .

Yea , the  present Pope is a nice guy , but infallible ? I don't think so , ex-cathedra or otherwise . And the whole saint and statue thing is idol worship . Atleast according to the Bibles I've studied .

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Aligarr, this is one of VERY MANY thought that took me OUT of the catholic church...one of very very many. if you want to follow Jesus you CANNOT be a catholic...sorry for this blatant truth. if you want to talk about it with me you can email me or send me a private message and we can continue this conversation, not here on a MUSLIM forum...you understand??

and i am glad you are a THINKER...

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