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Cardinal Signals Firm Vatican Stance With Muslims

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Peace everyone,

 

Reuters

Saturday, October 20, 2007; 3:51 AM

 

PARIS (Reuters) - The top Vatican official for Islam has praised a novel Muslim call for dialogue but said real theological debate with them was difficult as they saw the Koran as the literal word of God and would not discuss it in depth.

 

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, in an interview on Friday with the French Catholic daily La Croix, also said "Muslims do not accept that one can discuss the Koran in depth, because they say it was written by dictation from God," Tauran said. "With such an absolute interpretation, it is difficult to discuss the contents of faith."

 

The fact that Muslims can build Masjids in Europe while many Islamic states limit or ban church building cannot be ignored, he said.

 

The appeal last week by 138 scholars representing a large majority of Islamic views invited Christian leaders to a dialogue based on their common belief that love of God and neighbor is the cornerstone of their religions.

 

It was unprecedented because Islam has no central authority to speak for all believers, especially not the silent majority that does not agree with radicals whose preaching of jihad and rejection of other faiths often dominates the headlines.

 

While Muslims are spreading their hands to meet other faiths in a fruitful dialogue for a better world, the Vatican keeps an arrogant and ignorant distance. It sometimes seem that messages of peace can be wrongly translated into weakness.

But that uneducated cardinal went too far. His is asking us Muslims to set aside our firm beliefs and start doubting the Quran, and discuss its authenticity, for him to grant his acceptance of start a dialogue with Muslims!

I've never read such a vulgar, arrogant and ignorant statement from a religious figure in my entire life.

 

The Vatican is purposely taking advantage of the current weak political position of Muslims in the world today. But what they can't seem to figure out, is that the divine words of the Quran is deeply engraved in every Muslim's heart, and that no power on earth can shake even one character from its divine verses, and that its those very divine verses that urges us to try and start a peaceful dialogue with them:

3:64 Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will)

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Hello Dot

 

I don't quite see what is so vulgar about it? It IS quite difficult for proper Muslim-Christian Dialogue because all it is for both sides is an attempt to convert the other, which boths sides are highly resistant to. From the quote you provided this is what I see:

 

He says its a good thing that Muslims want dialogue with Christians but doesn't think it will work out quite the way we would all hope for. He hasnt asked you to set aside your beliefs, from what I have read, for I am sure he will not set aside his. Why are you bothered anyway? From what I've seen here you, along with the majority, consider us Catholics to be the lowest of the low, that we were the ones that ''corrupted'' God's Word in the first place, well, second place. I'm just saying it as I see it.

 

Now I've really got to get going I've got to catch the train to Uni :sl: .

 

God Bless

 

Peter

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Peace LDNCatholic,

 

We Muslims believe in Christianity, as well as all divine religions. Its a major elemet of the Islamic faith to believe in all divine religions and all messengers, told and untold.

We Muslims love mother Mary more than any female in the world. Her name was honored in the Quran, with a complete chapter named after her, and she's the only female mentioned by name in the Quran. We love Jesus so much, and we do not differentiate between him and our own.

On the other side, you do not believe in Islam. You don't even believe that Muhammad PBUH is a prophet in the first place!

That's probably why you didn't understand why that cardinal's words were insulting, ignorant and highly vulgar. He said "they say it was written by dictation from God"

 

Among all divine faiths, we are the religion capable of inviting all faiths of the world for a peaceful dialogue of understanding and co-existence. Yet that ignorant cardinal clearly and directly puts a condition that we must first accept that the words of the Quran is not divine but open for discussion?! can't you see the insult? if that's not vulgar, then what is?

 

Can't you see the difference between his mentality and Islam's? We call for a meeting, and he calls for a fight of destructing the root, the very basis of the other!!!

 

And regarding the point you raised about conversion, this call has nothing to do with either one trying to convert the other, lol. That dialogue was about stressing mutual respect. But the ignorance of that cardinal is trying to blow it before it starts!

 

If you examine and compare all 3 divine religions, you'll find that there are lots of common grounds shared between all three, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. There are endless topics of agreement between all three. Those Muslim scholars who called for the dialogue, where going to stress those agreement points among us, instead of disputing the differences. They wanted all sides to reach a good understanding and set rules of respect to be followed by all sides. Its only for the better of the world that those peace messages should be interpreted. But when ignorants are assigned to handle those calls of the wise among humanity, the result would surely be as comic and funny.

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Ok, so you think the Cardinal should admit that Islam is from God? No we do not believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad just as you do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus. There are differences but as you say there are many more similarities. This Cardinal was expressing his view as a highly learned member of the Church and I think it is petty to start insulting him. I am definate that if the cardinal were to be proven wrong he would be very happy.

 

I agree with you that there must be more focus on the things we agree on, One God (Even us pesky Trinitarians :sl: ), Compassion, Mercy, Peace, Justice, Love, the Afterlife and the day of Judgement.

 

The Church teaches that Muslims specifically are our separated brothers and sisters and God has plans for you. I believe that too and hope that there can be more dialogue. I pray that this meeting comes to fruition and has better results than his eminence predicts.

 

God Bless

 

Peter

 

P.S, Dot: call me Peter, we've had this talk before :sl:

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The Vatican's refusal to participate in the Muslim-Christian Dialogue by inventing nonsensical and irrational excuses to avoid the Muslim-Christian Dialogue has proven that the Vatican neither respect religious freedom nor tolerate non-Christians.

 

We Muslims would be glad to debate with the Vatican in an open public debate or the Muslim-Christian Dialogue . After all the Pope has insulted and slandered the Prophet Muhammad, Islam and Muslims so it would be our pleasure to prove that the Pope is wrong.

Edited by wiseguy

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Ok, so you think the Cardinal should admit that Islam is from God? No we do not believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad just as you do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus.

P.S, Dot: call me Peter, we've had this talk before :sl:

Most of the Jews say that they (the Jews) do not believe in the Prophethood of Jesus and now you Christians are imitating the Jews by saying that you (the Christians) do not believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad. On the contrary, we Muslims are neither Jews nor Christians for we believe in the Prophethood of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them). And one of the differences between you the Christians and us the Muslims is we revere the One true God but you the Trinitarian Christians revere the three Persons.

 

Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are Muslims for they say that God is One and Only. The messengers of God never say that God is One in Three. It is you the Trinitarian Christians who claim falsely that God is One in Three.

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The Vatican's refusal to participate in the Muslim-Christian Dialogue by inventing nonsensical and irrational excuses to avoid the Muslim-Christian Dialogue has proven that the Vatican neither respect religious freedom nor tolerate non-Christians.

 

We Muslims would be glad to debate with the Vatican in an open public debate or the Muslim-Christian Dialogue . After all the Pope has insulted and slandered the Prophet Muhammad, Islam and Muslims so it would be our pleasure to prove that the Pope is wrong.

 

Thanks for that ######. Tell me though, what does the Catholic Church's teaching that Muslims are our separated brethren and they have a role to play in salvation mean for the Vatican?

 

God Bless

 

Peter

 

P.S, as dot pointed out, this was not going to be a debate, it was supposed to highlight our similarities.

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But that uneducated cardinal went too far.
But the ignorance of that cardinal is trying to blow it before it starts!

 

I wonder what will happen in this forum if a none Muslim called an Islamic imam uneducated or ignorant. To us Catholics cardinals are the peak of piety, most of who reach it is the pride of Christendom, they have a chance to become the holy fathers of our faith.

 

As for the topic his eminence discussed I think it would be a good topic to debate on this forums. You people say that Islam is tolerant and merciful towards all other religions, then why do Islamic governments restrict if allow at all the construction of churches on Islam soil?

 

Most of the Jews say that they (the Jews) do not believe in the Prophethood of Jesus and now you Christians are imitating the Jews by saying that you (the Christians) do not believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad.

 

Christians are not imitating Jews, we never hated the lord, we never built a calf and worshiped it rather then god and we most certainly never killed any prophets sent to us in the name of mercy form the lord. I am trying to open the Islamic-Christian Dialogue here but you people have ignored me relentlessly.

 

''Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord and has made

the Lord his hope and confidence.''

- Jeremiah 17:7

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Thanks for that ######. Tell me though, what does the Catholic Church's teaching that Muslims are our separated brethren

 

According to the Catholic church, Muslims are your separated brethren because Muslims honour and love Abraham, Mary and Jesus. However we the Muslims reject the Trinity because it denies the Oneness of God! We reject the divinity of Jesus because Jesus is a servant of God.

Edited by wiseguy

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I wonder what will happen in this forum if a none Muslim called an Islamic imam uneducated or ignorant. To us Catholics cardinals are the peak of piety, most of who reach it is the pride of Christendom, they have a chance to become the holy fathers of our faith.

 

I'm quite sure there are uneducated or ignorant imams just as there are such priests, Cardinals or otherwise. It is a "tradition", "Islamic" or otherwise. The Prophet Muhammad (pbbuh) was unlettered (or illiterate as some may crudely put it) but no one would say he was uneducated or ignorant unless they themselves were, and the Christians (Catholics included) have said a lot of worse things about him so please excuse us if we say that if that is the peak of piety for Catholics and other Christians, then you are certainly in grave spiritual danger from your own holy fathers of your faith. Have you ever considered whether you have been misled by them?

 

As for the topic his eminence discussed I think it would be a good topic to debate on this forums. You people say that Islam is tolerant and merciful towards all other religions, then why do Islamic governments restrict if allow at all the construction of churches on Islam soil?

 

If his "eminence" really knew the Qur'an he would not be a Catholic now would he? He can debate it all he likes in any forum and so can you, but that would not change what it is, and what it is is a Revelation from God put into the mouth of the Prophet Muhammad (pbbuh).

 

Islam's tolerance and mercy towards all other religions may not be shared by purportedly "Islamic" goverments or all who call themselves "Muslim", but this should not confuse you as sometimes such governments and people do not follow Islam.

 

Christians are not imitating Jews, we never hated the lord, we never built a calf and worshiped it rather then god and we most certainly never killed any prophets sent to us in the name of mercy form the lord. I am trying to open the Islamic-Christian Dialogue here but you people have ignored me relentlessly.

 

What would you call building statues of Jesus and his mother and worshipping them rather than God? You have never killed any prophets sent to you because none were sent to you after Jesus, but you (Christians) have ceaselessly character-assassinated the one God sent as a mercy to the whole of mankind. Don't wonder then if we relentlessly ignore you.

 

But you are still welcome to open any dialogue here.

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The Vatican has insulted and slandered the Prophet Muhammad (peace and bless be upon him) so the Vatican does not tolerate religious freedom. On the contrary, we Muslims accept Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them) as the prophets of God and we honour, love and respect them very much and we believe that they are all Muslims for saying that God is One and Only.

 

Sorry, I said to myself I wouldn't bring this point up but here I feel it is applicable. I will believe that Islam is more tolerant than Catholicism when there is a Cathedral in the Kingdom. That ugly fact aside I believe that His Holiness is taking part in an interfaith dialogue in Naples.

 

God Bless

 

Peter

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I'm quite sure there are uneducated or ignorant imams just as there are such priests, Cardinals or otherwise. It is a "tradition", "Islamic" or otherwise. The Prophet Muhammad (pbbuh) was unlettered (or illiterate as some may crudely put it) but no one would say he was uneducated or ignorant unless they themselves were, and the Christians (Catholics included) have said a lot of worse things about him so please excuse us if we say that if that is the peak of piety for Catholics and other Christians, then you are certainly in grave spiritual danger from your own holy fathers of your faith. Have you ever considered whether you have been misled by them?

 

First I apologize for what I said earlier it was groundless. How ever the holy sea is not with out supervision from both his holiness the pope and the divinity that is god.

 

My I remind you what happened to Rodrigo Borgia who was named Pope Alexander VI. He was a despicable man who built his wealth on the life savings of the poor and when he became a cardinal only because of His uncle, Pope Callistus III, he sinned shamefully diving from one sin deeper into the other. But alas the mighty lord made an example of that man that set changes in the holy sea for ever. Forgive me for telling you how Rodrigo Borgia died. He was killed just as he killed so many, not by poison from his enemies but a poison that he him self had prepared for others. on his death bed, his skin peeled off, his face went from dark to darker colors, his bowels started to bleed after his abdomen swell, god spare us such agony. After his death his tongue enlarged to a level it forced his mouth open, his rotten corpse was black and putrefied. The bloated body growing in all directions finally burst, emitting sulphurous fumes from every orifice.

I apologize for such a horrid description. I wanted you to know that mischief with in the holy sea never goes unpunished! God keeps a keen eye on those who represent him. I did not present this example to harm in any way the holy papacy but to demonstrate the sever punishment of any one who attempts to abuse god's trust in him.

If his "eminence" really knew the Qur'an he would not be a Catholic now would he? He can debate it all he likes in any forum and so can you, but that would not change what it is, and what it is is a Revelation from God put into the mouth of the Prophet Muhammad (pbbuh).

 

Islam's tolerance and mercy towards all other religions may not be shared by purportedly "Islamic" goverments or all who call themselves "Muslim", but this should not confuse you as sometimes such governments and people do not follow Islam.

What would you call building statues of Jesus and his mother and worshipping them rather than God? You have never killed any prophets sent to you because none were sent to you after Jesus, but you (Christians) have ceaselessly character-assassinated the one God sent as a mercy to the whole of mankind. Don't wonder then if we relentlessly ignore you.

 

But you are still welcome to open any dialogue here.

 

The statues in our churches are not deity statues they are memorial statues, meaning that we don’t pray to them but to whom they represent.

 

''The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never

come to an end; they are new every morning''

Lamentations 3:22-23

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Sorry, I said to myself I wouldn't bring this point up but here I feel it is applicable. I will believe that Islam is more tolerant than Catholicism when there is a Cathedral in the Kingdom. That ugly fact aside I believe that His Holiness is taking part in an interfaith dialogue in Naples.

 

The Catholics seized all the Masjids in Spain and turned them into churches after the fall of Muslim Spain and now you are insisting that there should be a Cathedral in Saudi Arabia that 100% of its citizens are Muslims. Are you joking? Would you allow us Muslims to build a Masjid in the Vatican? We Muslims allow Catholics to build their churches in our Muslim countries as long as there are Catholics who are the citizens of Muslim countries.

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The Catholics seized all the Masjids in Spain and turned them into churches after the fall of Muslim Spain and now you are insisting that there should be a Cathedral in Saudi Arabia that 100% of its citizens are Muslims. Are you joking? Would you allow us Muslims to build a Masjid in the Vatican? We Muslims allow Catholics to build their churches in our Muslim countries as long as there are Catholics who are the citizens of Muslim countries.

 

100% of it's citizens, how about something for its migrant workers? Also that 100% is a little overestimated. I know a few Saudi Christians and they've told me theres a great many Christians back home. Obviously though as everyone in Saudi Arabia is registered as Muslim, were one to openly admit to being a Christian he would definately be killed as an apostate. Would I allow you Muslims to build a Masjid in the Vatican (Assuming I had the power to decide)? No. It would serve no purpose as the Vatican City is approximately a kilometre squared. Theres a Masjid just down the road. The Kingdom is slightly bigger than that with a definite Christian population. How many Muslim migrant workers work in the Vatican?

 

God Bless

 

Peter

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LDNCatholic,

Out of 244 countries of the world, you picked Saudi Arabia. What does that tell? Out of all the books of Islam, the cardinal picked the root and heart of Islam, the glorious Quran, and demanded that Muslims doubt its divinity. What does that tell?

 

Although we both share many common grounds, its regrettable that some Christians still look for any hole to jump on us from, and attack our tolerance, and defeat our call for peace and mutual respect. Is that your idea of a better world to live in? Why didn't you mention Al Quds instead? or Saint Catherine of Egypt, where a church, synagogue and a Masjid are there side-by-side? and other Muslim countries that has hundreds of churches each?

 

Muslims respect all places of worship. Islam teaches us, even in a state of war, never to attack a place of worship, or religious figures. Have a look at how American Christian soldiers blow up Masjids in Iraq and even kill prayers as they pray. Can you see any difference?

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Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, in an interview on Friday with the French Catholic daily La Croix, also said "Muslims do not accept that one can discuss the Koran in depth, because they say it was written by dictation from God," Tauran said. "With such an absolute interpretation, it is difficult to discuss the contents of faith."

 

Hmm, let's see... how about "Muslims signal firm Islamic Stance with Christians/Vatican": "Yusufar, a Muslim nobody today said "Christians do not accept that one can discuss the divinity of Jesus in depth, because they say that he said he is the Son of God...With such an absolute interpretation, it is difficult to discuss the contents of faith."

 

So how about it Christians? Are you willing to accept that Jesus may not be what you say someone said he said so that we can have a dialogue?

Edited by yusufar
typo

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Thanks for that ######. Tell me though, what does the Catholic Church's teaching that Muslims are our separated brethren and they have a role to play in salvation mean for the Vatican?

 

According to the Catholic church, Muslims are your separated brethren because Muslims honour and love Abraham, Mary and Jesus. However we the Muslims reject the Trinity because it denies the Oneness of God! We reject the divinity of Jesus because Jesus is a servant of God.

 

The Vatican has insulted and slandered the Prophet Muhammad (peace and bless be upon him) so the Vatican does not tolerate religious freedom. On the contrary, we Muslims accept Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them) as the prophets of God and we honour, love and respect them very much and we believe that they are Muslims for saying that God is One and Only. They never say that God is One in Three. It was the corrupt and immoral priests at Nicea who invented the Trinity 325 years after Jesus was gone.

 

You the Christians are imitating ancient people such as the Egyptians and Japanese etc who had worshiped a man such as the pharaohs and the Japanese emperors etc as their fake gods. You the Christians are equating God to a powerless man and you worship and revere the powerless man (Jesus) as your Lord (God) and you slander God by saying that God has a son or sons. You also slander God by saying that God is One in Three. Therefore the Christian salvation based on these false doctrines will not save you the Christians. On the contrary, God will send you the Christians ,who have slandered and insulted Him, to HELL. So it is our duty as a Muslim to save you the Christians.

 

In Islam, if you have faith in God, believe in His messengers, and obey His commands then He shall multiply every single good deed that you do many, many times and erase your evil deeds, until on the Day of Judgment His mercy shall cause your good deeds to far outweigh your evil deeds and grant you passage into an ecstasy and Paradise so great that we can not even imagine it, to abide there eternally. In the Hereafter there is only reward and no work.

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I wonder what will happen in this forum if a none Muslim called an Islamic imam uneducated or ignorant. To us Catholics cardinals are the peak of piety, most of who reach it is the pride of Christendom, they have a chance to become the holy fathers of our faith.

If you say that Catholics cardinals are the peak of piety, then all the criminals are the peak of Christian piety because Pope Urban II and other Popes had launched the Crusade wars to invade and occupy Muslim countries and terrorize, torture, rape and massacre innocent and defenseless Muslims, Jews, Eastern Christians etc in Palestine etc.

 

Pope established inquisitions and Inquisitors acted in the name of the Pope and with his full authority carried out inquisitions to terrorize and murder millions of Christians and non-Christians. In the 16th century, Pope Paul III established the Roman Inquisition. This was a system of tribunals, ruled by the "Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition", staffed by cardinals and other Church officials.

 

Cardinal Pacelli, representing Pope Pius XI, signs the "Reichskonkordat" with the government headed by Nazi Chancellor Adolf Hitler, on July 20, 1933 in Rome. Pope Pius XI and the Catholic church supported the Nazi regime that caused more than 56 millions of Christians to die in Europe during the 2nd World War.

 

The Vatican and the Pope also condone pedophiliac priests by failing to remove cardinals and bishops known to protect pedophiles, facts that a man in his position would have absolutely known about. The Vatican and the Pope tries to act as though Homosexuality is rare in the Church however a study revealed in the Kansas City Star newspaper on Jan. 31, 2000, indicates that from 15% to 30% of Catholic priests are homosexual with about half of them active. The article reveals that Roman Catholic priests (including bishops) in the United States are dying from AIDS-related illnesses at a rate four times that of the general population, and yet the Pope refuses to remove these clerics.

 

CBS News uncovers a secret Vatican document that proves that the decades long sex scandal involving pedophilia by Catholic priests was covered up by orders from the highest levels of the Vatican. Those who had information on pedophilia by priests were under the threat of excommunication if they should reveal what they knew to the secular authorities. The protection of pedophiles by the Vatican is racketeering, pure and simple. (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcbsnews(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcbsnews(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/stories/2003/08/06/...ain566978.shtml[/url]

 

As for the topic his eminence discussed I think it would be a good topic to debate on this forums. You people say that Islam is tolerant and merciful towards all other religions, then why do Islamic governments restrict if allow at all the construction of churches on Islam soil?

History states that Islamic government respects religious freedom of non-Muslims and non-Muslims are allowed to build churches, temples etc. If you want to build a large church in a Muslim village, you are trying to insult the Muslims who live in the village for the Muslim villagers will not worship in the church. Would you allow Muslims to build a large Masjid in the Vatican?

 

Christians are not imitating Jews, we never hated the lord, we never built a calf and worshiped it rather then god and we most certainly never killed any prophets sent to us in the name of mercy form the lord. I am trying to open the Islamic-Christian Dialogue here but you people have ignored me relentlessly
.

 

You the Christians slander and insult God by equating God to a powerless man. You also make images and statues of Jesus, Mary, Christian saints etc and you revere and worship them in churches etc. You also slander Jesus by calling Jesus the Son of God and worship Jesus as your so-called 'God' or 'Lord'.

Edited by wiseguy

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100% of it's citizens, how about something for its migrant workers?

The migrant workers are not the citizens of Saudi Arabia.

 

Also that 100% is a little overestimated. I know a few Saudi Christians and they've told me theres a great many Christians back home.

I challenge you to show me some evidence that support your allegation above. A few Saudi Christians do not represents all the citizens of Saudi Arabia so the number of the so-called 'Saudi Christians' is negligible.

 

Would I allow you Muslims to build a Masjid in the Vatican (Assuming I had the power to decide)? No.

 

I will believe that Islam is more tolerant than Catholicism when there is a Cathedral in the Kingdom.

 

You LDNCatholic are practising double standard for insisting that there should be a church in Saudi Arabia while saying that you would not allow Muslims to build a Masjid in the Vatican. Are you a Vatican joker? History has proven that you Catholics are not tolerant. For example the Catholics had seized all the Masjids and turned them into churches after the fall of Spain and forced or coerced Muslims, Jews and Protestants to convert to Christianity and you Catholics terrorized them in the name of the infamous Spanish Inquisition etc.

Edited by wiseguy

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The Vatican has insulted and slandered the Prophet Muhammad (peace and bless be upon him) so the Vatican does not tolerate religious freedom. On the contrary, we Muslims accept Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless be upon them) as the prophets of God and we honour, love and respect them very much and we believe that they are Muslims for saying that God is One and Only. They never say that God is One in Three. It was the corrupt and immoral priests at Nicea who invented the Trinity 325 years after Jesus was gone.

 

Islam believes that Moses is a Muslim? But he was a Jewish prophet of Hebrew decent . Would you elaborate on this for me please?

 

You the Christians are imitating ancient people such as the Egyptians and Japanese etc who had worshiped a man such as the pharaohs and the Japanese emperors etc as their fake gods. You the Christians are equating God to a powerless man and you worship and revere the powerless man (Jesus) as your Lord (God) and you slander God by saying that God has a son or sons. You also slander God by saying that God is One in Three. Therefore the Christian salvation based on these false doctrines will not save you the Christians. On the contrary, God will send you the Christians ,who have slandered and insulted Him, to HELL. So it is our duty as a Muslim to save you the Christians.

 

I don’t think any one here has the right to say who goes to hell and who does not. As for the connection between Egyptians, Japanese and Christendom I would say it's none. Those deities were mere human imagination, and the proof of that is their extension as the true god is eternal and would never die! So we can deduce from this that Christianity is linked in no way to pagan heretic gods. Anther piece of logic would be that those ancient civilizations had to many gods so if Christendom was based upon them we would not be having a trinity but a whole hoard of gods. No the truth is clear for those who want to see it.

 

If you say that Catholics cardinals are the peak of piety, then all the criminals are the peak of Christian piety because Pope Urban II and other Popes had launched the Crusade wars to invade and occupy Muslim countries and terrorize, torture, rape and massacre innocent and defenseless Muslims, Jews, Eastern Christians etc in Palestine etc.

 

Pope established inquisitions and Inquisitors acted in the name of the Pope and with his full authority carried out inquisitions to terrorize and murder millions of Christians and non-Christians. In the 16th century, Pope Paul III established the Roman Inquisition. This was a system of tribunals, ruled by the "Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition", staffed by cardinals and other Church officials.

 

May I remind you that his holiness pope Urban II never lead the crusades, you cant blame him for what the soldiers did or what their commanders have orders them to do. In fact in many occasions the people of the church who went on the holy crusades denied what the crusaders did, and declared it was not of Christian origin.

As for the holy inquisitions they were used to root out heresy and help protect the faith from any of those who tried to change it. But unfortunately they were not successful in stopping all mutations in Christianity as the protestant faith rose and followed by a lot of other ones, if only Christianity would have stayed together it would have ruled the world, but no thanks to Christ's murderers who were jealous of the mighty church so they infiltrated it and started to buy the weak minded of the holy sea and other men who called them selves men of god. I am eager to know what Islam does to those who try to harm and change its origins.

 

We both know that a religion should not and could not be judged by those who abide it. So why do you keep on saying what some Christians did? I don’t expect you to understand the reason behind the holy inquisitions or any of the other actions of the papacy. We can both go on stating names of people who did horrible things all day long but in the end will reach the same conclusion. If you want to learn about a faith do so from those who died on the true path not those who sinned and covered their hands with blood.

 

Regarding homosexuality and any other vise reported to be found by what ever media company, I don’t believe all of what they say, and they have been known to exaggerate. But Christians are not the only ones who don’t respect their faith. I see a lot of Muslims here in the states that do horrible things not on TV but with my own eyes. But I never judged Islam on their behalf; because I know that in today's world not remembering the lord is easy but it's remembering him that is hard, remember that doing the right thing is never easy.

 

History states that Islamic government respects religious freedom of non-Muslims and non-Muslims are allowed to build churches, temples etc. If you want to build a large church in a Muslim village, you are trying to insult the Muslims who live in the village for the Muslim villagers will not worship in the church. Would you allow Muslims to build a large Masjid in the Vatican?

 

''Steele, James. 1991. The New Masjid and Islamic Centre in Rome'' Is the address of a Masjid in Rome. Jesus taught us to love all people even our enemies.

''But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you'' (Luke 6:27-28).

I ask you are there any churches in the Islamic holy cities? Other then Jerusalem of course.

And I don’t see any thing wrong with building a cathedral which is a monument to the lord in a small village, regardless of its inhabitant's faith. The churches are places of worship they are a sanctuary a place of peace where people will only find love and harmony. So why would you consider building a cathedral in an Islamic village to be an insult?

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Peace upon those who follow the guidance,

 

why would you consider building a cathedral in an Islamic village to be an insult?

Because of the cross. Its very insulting to any Muslim's faith, as it represents the trinity, which is a grave crime: to join others with our Creator, God Almighty, and a slander to a very dear prophet to any Muslim, prophet Jesus PBUH.

 

Other than that, believe me, Muslims in Islamic countries have very good relations with Christians. I have a lot of Christian friends myself, and I know several Christian female co-workers who are married to Muslim men. Those Christian wives teach their children how to pray, and help them memorize the Quran.

In areas where Christianity originated, for example in Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt, you can sense a warm feeling of friendship and sweet neighborhood between Muslims and Christians. In Palestine, Christian priests back up the Muslim resistance to the occupation, as they both face the same enemy, and support them and stand by them. They even opened their churches for Muslims to hide and protect them from israeli terror state tanks. They faced starvation together, and even ate tree leaves together while the israeli surrounded their churches. True noble human relations are felt everywhere in the air of those countries. You can see a church almost anywhere there is a Masjid. I invite you to visit the middle east to see that for yourself, and feel how we both live in harmony and beautiful tolerance. Christians in exchange do not display very big crosses like you do in the US and Europe ouside Church buildings. Most Churches are surrounded by high fences, so as not to insult their Muslim neighbors and street passers, to avoid insulting them with the cross.

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Islam believes that Moses is a Muslim? But he was a Jewish prophet of Hebrew decent . Would you elaborate on this for me please?

Yes, all prophets were Muslims, starting from prophet Adam PBUH up until prophet Muhammad PBUH. Islam means 'submission to God'. they were all humans, all servants of God Almighty, all submitted to Him, and all prostrated to Him in their prayers.

Prophet Ibrahim PBUH, prophet Moses PBUH, and Prophet Jesus PBUH were all Muslims, according to God's divine words in the Quran:

002.127 And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.

002.128 "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

 

3:84 Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. [68] And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."

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You LDNCatholic are practising double standard for insisting that there should be a church in Saudi Arabia while saying that you would not allow Muslims to build a Masjid in the Vatican. Are you a Vatican joker? History has proven that you Catholics are not tolerant. For example the Catholics had seized all the Masjids and turned them into churches after the fall of Spain and forced or coerced Muslims, Jews and Protestants to convert to Christianity and you Catholics terrorized them in the name of the infamous Spanish Inquisition etc.

 

OK, call me Peter though. Am I a Vatican joker? No I've never been. As I said before Saudi Arabia is a large country with Christians living there. How many Muslims reside permanently inside the Vatican and would find it hard to get out and wander down the street to the Masjid?

 

Regarding 'proof' of the Saudi Christians, where and when would you like to come to London and meet me? I could arrange for them to stand in fron of you and tell you to your face. But I think that even then you would regard me as a liar.

 

God Bless

 

Peter

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Islam believes that Moses is a Muslim? But he was a Jewish prophet of Hebrew decent . Would you elaborate on this for me please?

 

The Holy Quran 2:213

Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.

 

The Holy Quran 6:48

We send the messengers only to give good news and to warn: so those who believe and mend (their lives),- upon them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

 

The Holy Quran 6:130

"O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say: "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

 

The Holy Quran 14:4

We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

 

The Holy Quran 14:5

We sent Moses with Our signs (and the command). "Bring out thy people from the depths of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the Days of Allah." Verily in this there are Signs for such as are firmly patient and constant,- grateful and appreciative.

 

I don’t think any one here has the right to say who goes to hell and who does not.

If you defy Allah (God), you would go to hell. If you worship fake gods, you will go to hell.

 

The Holy Quran 3:10-12Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire. (Their plight will be) no better than that of the people of Pharaoh, and their predecessors: They denied our Signs, and Allah called them to account for their sins. For Allah is strict in punishment. Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,-an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!

 

The Holy Quran 9:67-68

The hypocritical men and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors. Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of Hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment,-

 

If you ask Allah for His forgiveness sincerely, Allah the All-Merciful will forgive you.

 

After committing a sin, a person who fears Allah and give high respect to Him would feel a sense of despondency and despair thinking, "How will God forgive me for this sin?" However, it is noteworthy that despairing of God's mercy is in itself one of the major sins in Islam for God is ever merciful, ever forgiving.

 

As Allah (God) says in the Qur'an:

 

"Do not despair of God's mercy; He will forgive you of all your sins".Qur'an 39:53.

 

In another verse, Allah says:

 

"And He wishes to forgive you" Qur'an 4:146.

 

Islam fully understands the temptations that come in the way of everyone of us, and that which some of us might go for. Only through repentance, that one can wipeout those sins and past misdeeds and gradually get freed from the clutches of the ego.

 

Repentance is the most noble and beloved form of obedience in the eyes of Allah the All Mighty. He loves those who repent. Repentance has a status that no other form of worship has. This is why Allah is extremely happy when a servant repents just as a traveller is happy when he finds his lost mount in the desert.

 

Feeling Allah's satisfaction has its great impact on the heart of the one repenting. Hence, the repenting person reaches the status of being amongst the beloved through his repentance.

 

Moreover, repentance brings about humbleness and a sense of helplessness to the only Creator; Allah, and that is not easily acquired through other forms of worship.

 

Allah says in the Qur'an:

 

"Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)

 

This is a greatest glad tiding for those who repent and combine their repentance with deep faith and good deeds.

 

Repentance breeds good deeds, whilst sinning (without repentance) can cause deprivation of obedience altogether. It has been said that committing sins regularly will darken and harden the heart and make purifying it once again a difficult mission. It may even lead a person to reject Allah completely (Allah forbid) or lead him to commit a bigger sin. There is no recourse for a sinner except to ask Allah for forgiveness and to feel great regret for his actions.

 

Repentance is to repent from the heart, to train the heart into obedi ence and to make a firm resolution never to commit the sin again.

 

If you obey Allah (God), Allah will reward you in this world and hereafter.:

 

Allah (God) says:

And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... (Quran, 2:25)

 

Allah has said in the Quran:

But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever.... (Quran, 4:57)

 

Allah (God) has also said:

Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers.... (Quran, 57:21)

Edited by wiseguy

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Peace upon those who follow the guidance,

Because of the cross. Its very insulting to any Muslim's faith, as it represents the trinity, which is a grave crime: to join others with our Creator, God Almighty, and a slander to a very dear prophet to any Muslim, prophet Jesus PBUH.

Other than that, believe me, Muslims in Islamic countries have very good relations with Christians. I have a lot of Christian friends myself, and I know several Christian female co-workers who are married to Muslim men. Those Christian wives teach their children how to pray, and help them memorize the Quran.

In areas where Christianity originated, for example in Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt, you can sense a warm feeling of friendship and sweet neighborhood between Muslims and Christians. In Palestine, Christian priests back up the Muslim resistance to the occupation, as they both face the same enemy, and support them and stand by them. They even opened their churches for Muslims to hide and protect them from israeli terror state tanks. They faced starvation together, and even ate tree leaves together while the israeli surrounded their churches. True noble human relations are felt everywhere in the air of those countries. You can see a church almost anywhere there is a Masjid. I invite you to visit the middle east to see that for yourself, and feel how we both live in harmony and beautiful tolerance. Christians in exchange do not display very big crosses like you do in the US and Europe ouside Church buildings. Most Churches are surrounded by high fences, so as not to insult their Muslim neighbors and street passers, to avoid insulting them with the cross.

I suppose if you look into what the cross represents it would defy an Islamic principle. But I also think you people know that Christians don’t mind crescents at all. Which makes me wonder what does the crescent represent any way?

 

 

Yes, all prophets were Muslims, starting from prophet Adam PBUH up until prophet Muhammad PBUH. Islam means 'submission to God'. they were all humans, all servants of God Almighty, all submitted to Him, and all prostrated to Him in their prayers.

Prophet Ibrahim PBUH, prophet Moses PBUH, and Prophet Jesus PBUH were all Muslims, according to God's divine words in the Quran:

 

Sorry Dot I still doesn't understand how all those prophets who lived in times before the respected Quran be Muslims? Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses both had their own different religions with their own different holy documents given to them by the lord. How can they be Muslims if they never prayed like you do or even lived to believe in Muhammad?

 

''For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.''

I Corinthians 14:33

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