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Oh come now Donald , the difference between Russell and I , and possibly you is simply  this, I know how to say " I don't know " . I'm an agnostic . I do not know . Is there purpose- I do not know , is this all chance -I do not know . I have "ideas " just like Russell . And like Russell I have not one iota of proof or evidence . I speculate just as Russell does, and all the scientists .  Russell contends that scientific ideas are superior to philosophical ideas , truth is , neither are superior to the other in respect to the issue at hand. I am not skeptical of science , I also think it fun to learn of new discoveries , learn new things etc . But as Dirty Harry says , " A Man's got to know his limitations " . As to the pre-Inflation Universe [ if any ] ,that will forever be beyond our limitations as to our ability to test and /or observe .We can write countless volumes and be accurate, on what happened -AFTER the initial Inflation ,and why , also quite possibly [ but not likely]extrapolate to a heat death or cold dark entropy , no more available energy , total disorder . Am I using any semantics here ? If so please advise .

 

I would ask you the same question , if you have any evidence of what was , as to the physical parameters [Quantum or Classical] of what we call the Universe before Inflation , then by all means pay it forward man . Russell has " true ideas " whatever that means .[ I think he means  "true-er ideas" :- )  ]  No semantics on my part mate .Nor with the other thread on Murder vs Killing .

 And by all means if you know of any theoretical Cosmologist , Mathematician or Physicist  , who can say with any confidence or surety as to that question , please provide a reference , I will read it with an open mind .

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Hi Eclipse

 

Of course you are wrong here as I’ve explained, science doesn’t know in any great detail what came before inflation or what drove inflation but, as I explained, science does indeed ‘know’ a number of things about inflation and its precursors.  Firstly we know that inflation and its precursors had to be capable of producing a universe like the one we see around us.  Inflation itself explains the horizon problem no matter what drove it and what came before it for example.  It can only do that if a number of details of the universe were as science describes them, that’s a boundary condition on what the pre inflation universe might have been like.  It also seems clear that this is a closed universe so we know that the amount of energy in it is fixed and we’ve measured it to be zero so we know that before inflation there was zero total energy.  Vacuum fluctuations produce zero total energy.  We also know that something had to drive inflation and that that had to be a feature of the pre-inflationary universe and yes the details of what that is are speculative but not in the sense of wild guesses rather they are based on all of the very best knowledge we have to work with.

 

So your characterization of science as knowing nothing is simply foolish.  It has limited knowledge for certain and hypotheses about what was back there but these are strongly bounded by the conditions that resulted conditions we can examine in the universe around us.

 

Russell

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Uh ,Russell , I did  NOT say science knows nothing , I said science knows nothing of what occurred BEFORE the Inflation . Shame on you Russell , using a straw man now ? 

Yes we can examine the Universe around us , NOW , as it exists TODAY , and back to a time shortly after Inflation .But NOTHING before that . All experiments in Quantum Theory have taken place on the EARTH in the HERE and NOW .The Laws of Physics be they Classical or Quantum exist now , no one knows if these laws applied before the Inflation . You know that Russell . Science does not know in ANY detail what came before inflation or whjat drove it , you know that too. You are being disingenuous Russell to suit your argument . You know as well as I that ALL physical laws breakdown at roughly 3 Planck segments after the Inflation , so how do you make such a statement . What we know about vacuum fluctuations and zero total energy , has been derived by observations and experiments in the present time in the present condition of the Universe . And that itself is not settled science . It is nothing more than speculation and you know it . Your post is basically double-talk .  If you don't realize that , then you should .

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Hi Eclipse

 

What you said exactly was “science knows nothing of what existed before the presently observed inflation of the Universe” and I pointed out a few things that science does know about that point, as I said we know that it must have contained zero energy and it must have been capable of producing a universe that looks like the one we find ourselves in which means it must have been able to solve the horizon problem, the magnetic monopole problem and the flatness problem through inflation most likely.  The pre inflationary universe must also have contained the energy/fields necessary to drive inflation and the precursors to all of the matter we see around us. Is that your idea of nothing?

 

There are few in the science community who see pre Planck time as a limitation to our inflationary models, it is certainly a limit in a classical system driven by relativity but all of the pre inflationary events must be quantum given the size of the universe at that time so these rules likely don’t apply.  At the quantum scale even time does not appear to be a limiting factor even in our real world experiments today.

 

You are also right when you say that all of this is based on what we can see around us today but remember that for every light year we look out into space we are looking back a year into history.  How far back into history do you think we are seeing when we look at the Cosmic Microwave Background exactly?

 

Cosmology and much of modern science is forensic.  We learn about the past and about areas we can’t reach indirectly using our instruments and our brains to examine evidence left by events we are interested in.  That’s true for us determining the constituents of our planets core or our sun’s core and it is true when we look back into deep time, back to before the Cosmic Microwave Background was generated.  We don’t need to be able to directly observe something to learn about it using these methods.  If that were the case most of modern science would be worthless.

 

Russell

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Russell the cosmic background radiation detected by two AT&T Lab Technicians Penzias and Wilson ,this was predicted by Gamow and the measurement of 2.7k agrees with that prediction of a hot beginning which is isotropic and permeates the cosmos .It is also commonly  known as "the echo of the Big Bang ", is estimated to be as old as the limit of the detectable Universe which is approximately 13,8 billions light years or 13.8 billion years ago . By way of known physical laws regarding matter and energy we look back and can explain or hypothesize that the Inflation took place at least that long ago . But as theoretical mathematicians and physicists have already calculated , only back as far as 3 Planck time segments after the Inflation started . Beyond that known physical laws breakdown , be they quantum or classical . You know this , it is basic cosmology 101 . Known physics simply can not describe anything before that . Can you tell me how many competing  "hypotheses " regarding what came before that , are in circulation today ? I know of atleast 5 . And new ones crop up on a regular basis . I call that speculation . Certain of the world most prominent Cosmologists and theoretical physicists have differing views as to anything before those 3 Planck segments of time . That is still speculative .I am open to new discoveries , but at present , there is nothing definitive . Good ideas? Yes , but nonetheless speculation. No known physical laws to explain the inflation nor the irregular distribution of matter in the expansion .Nor why matter won out over anti-matter , or the cause of the accelerating velocity of the galaxies . Even the popular Dark Matter /Dark Energy  still eludes physicists , as a cause for the acceleration . Still no gravitational waves detected .

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Hi Eclipse

 

Cosmology 101 indeed but your claim was that we know nothing about it and I’ve pointed out, a few times now, that that is false as we do know that it contains no energy in total and that it must have been capable of producing inflation and thus a universe that looks like the one we find ourselves in.  That’s not a lot but it’s certainly not nothing as you have claimed.

 

Yes there are a number of competing theories, I’ve not counted them but more than 3 and less than 10 at this stage as far as I know attempting to explain the precursors to inflation but inflation itself is described in some detail and the current model, though certainly incomplete, explains a number of findings in this universe, the absence of magnetic monopoles, the flatness of the universe and the homogeneity and isotropy of this universe.  There is no detailed description at the particle level at this stage but a great deal of theory, supported by observation, at a higher level of what occurred.

 

Inflation predicts that the visible universe today was formed by the gravitational collapse of perturbations that began as vacuum fluctuations during the inflationary epoch.  The details of this nearly-scale-invariant Gaussian random field has only two free parameters, amplitude and spectral index.  Again this is very specific detail for something about which you claimed we ‘know’ nothing at all.  The structure of this has been tested to a high degree of accuracy by the WMAP spacecraft again lending strong support to this view of inflation.

 

You are a bit flexible on the point at which we suddenly start to know nothing as it seems to move around a bit reading back through your posts to this thread so I’m not currently sure if you include or exclude inflation in part on in whole in your “we know nothing” umbrella as you’ve changed your mind, or miss spoken, on that point in this thread.

 

Russell

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Russell , you're jousting.

  I made it clear from the start , science knows nothing -regarding Physical Laws , the state of Matter and Energy, BEFORE 3 Planck segments AFTER the Inflation started. I don't see that as jumping around on my part , but it does indicate some on your part.

 

  As I said before , all observations , tests , equations , math , physics that have taken place locally, and in the time frame of our existence ,are all qualified as per the present state of the Universe. None of it applies to the state of the Universe or those same physical laws , matter , energy ,  magnetic /gravitational fields , before that short period of time after the Inflation .

 

Nor did I express in any way ,doubts that Inflation did in fact occur ,  it is TRUE, that  all theories on the mechanism that started the Inflation are pure speculation , in addition any statement made about it's causation visa vis , multiverse , virtual particles burrowing through any barrier ,  vacuum fluctuation, etc. are simply the same pure speculation and/or conjecture , just as are all philosophical views.

 

Russell , science has "ideas " , you have "ideas " , I have  "ideas " , but that is all they are. Nothing is known about the state of the Universe , BEFORE the Inflation.  I think you know that Russell , if you don't , you most surely should. Will it ever be possible to determine that ? Is it even possible  ? I don't know , nor do you.

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Hi Eclipse

 

“roughly 3 Planck segments after the Inflation” - Eclipse

“3 Planck time segments after the Inflation started” - Eclipse

You see the problem I’m sure.

 

Any way I don’t think we are going to make any progress here, you haven’t argued against the things I’ve said about what we do know about the pre inflationary universe, basically you’ve just claimed we know nothing and ignored the things I’ve pointed out that we do know.

 

You state that all ideas of what existed before inflation are pure speculation but I’ve explained why that is not true, just saying it again and again doesn’t change the fact that people with all of the best information we have at hand and the most in-depth training in the current state of human knowledge on this subject have worked out what might have been there in quite some detail.  Pure speculation would not be based on existing knowledge because then it would be bound in reality as it is currently understood and so it would no longer be ‘pure speculation’.  It is certainly speculation by the way but it is well bounded and I would suggest well founded speculation.

 

How many electron volts does it take to simulate the sorts of conditions that existed before inflation?  How many electron volts can the LHC generate?

 

Russell

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Russel -  a Planck segment is the time it takes light to travel in a vacuum for 1 planck unit of distance . For all practical purposes it is an enormously SMALL expanse of time . 3 planck units /segments /planck seconds  are all an expression of how far back physics and math can look back after the initial Inflation without those laws breaking down .[science admits that much ]  

 You can understand that , or maybe you can't because your line of reply seems to be meandering in several directions . I have not deviated in any of the statements made regarding what science knows as it refers to that point in time , looking back wards toward the Inflation , at which all known Physics and mathematical calculation break down . Beyond that NOTHING is known , beyond that there is only speculation and conjecture .

 That's as clear as I can make it for you old boy. You are the one repeating yourself , in your insistence that any hypotheses , theories , "ideas " ,are something more than speculation . Beyond that point in the past, science has only speculation . You have the strange notion that based on the present condition of the Universe , you can extrapolate and apply present conditions to a point before the Initial Inflation , and that is patently false . Speculation is speculation and you can not qualify that by using biased terms like "well founded " and  "well bounded " . What you pointed out to me was simply what has been learned locally in the present conditions of the Universe , and that does not allude to  anything before inflation .

 Now you can dance around with those sentiments all you like , the truth of the matter is , they all remain in the realm of speculation and conjecture. The Inflation is not conjecture or speculation , as all observed behavior , data , measurements ,etc. of the Universe in its present condition , indicates such an inflation and roughly when it started , I do not reject those things at all . Nor do I reject any possibilities regarding what was before the Inflation , however anything expounded regarding conditions before the Inflation are as I said pure speculation . If in your opinion you wish to give such speculation more weight than actually is ,then that is just that -your opinion . You have no scientific basis . If you think you do , then please, go tell Hawking and the rest of the world's renowned Physicists .

 

Your closing question is meaningless , because no one knows anything about the conditions that existed before Inflation .  LOL...you may guess based on speculation , but that is about all you can do , as your answer would be rendered meaningless in the face of a meaningless question .

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Hi Eclipse

 

A “Planck Segment” is not a scientific term which causes some confusion and, as I documented last time you change your mind about whether it is a “Planck Segment” after inflation started or a “Planck Segment” after Inflation.  So yes a little confusing still you’ve made it clear what you mean now so we can move on.

 

According to current theory the problem horizon for our understanding here is the end of the Planck epoch which ran from 0 to around 10-43 of a second after the big bang.  Little is known about the time immediately after that though some information has been gleaned by extrapolating data from the WMAP probe which is used to test the theories around what happened before inflation and more data will be gleaned from the Planck Surveyor probe plus we can know that whatever was there was capable of creating this universe which puts bounds on it again thus giving us more information.  I know that you don’t accept this but you can’t counter it so we’ll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

I understand that my question was “meaningless” in your words but let’s look at what science actually tells us on this question. Strong and electroweak force separate at around 1021 electron volts, that’s also around the figure calculated for matter at the start of inflation, a figure supported by findings from WMAP, so that’s how much energy we’d need to generate in the LHC or a similar device to study it directly. The electromagnetic and weak forces separate at around 100000000 electron volts so again we know the figures you’ll need to study these events.  The LHC generates, in its second stage of operation, around 13000000000000 electron volts.  Plenty of energy to study the separation of the electroweak force but not sufficient to study the separation of the strong and electroweak forces or matter as it existed before inflation.  We keep scaling up these devices so who knows if we can reach the required energy, I suspect we’ll have to move these experiments into space to be able to create large enough accelerator rings for experiments into the pre-inflationary epoch but who knows what the future may hold.  Of course we can also gain a glimpse into those times by studying the fingerprints they leave on the cosmic microwave background and other signatures left in this universe and the LHC does generate more energy than the latter stages of inflation so it may be capable of creating at least some of the interactions which occurred during that epoch.  One suggestion is that the HIGS may be the inflaton and the HIGS is clearly within the capabilities of the LHC but such theories have hurdles to cross before they will be accepted.

 

Russell

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Russell , there's nothing you've just said that changes the facts . All you've done is given YOUR reasons ,and gleaned data that you use to hold up the notion that science's theories on the conditions prior to 3 planck segments of time after the Inflation , are something more than speculation. Your last sentences kind of sum up my point .There are many hurdles , indeed,  and likely many we do not even know of yet , and still we are no closer to understanding , knowing or duplicating conditions of the Universe before [ and I will use this expression  for your benefit ] 0+ 10-43 seconds,  0 of course denoting the beginning of Inflation , which said in a different way- 3 planck segments of time after the beginning of Inflation . Now that you know what a planck segment and a planck unit are.

 In the absence of any groundbreaking discovery in Physics or the related disciplines , neither you nor I nor any scientist can logically posit anything but speculation on conditions existing in the Universe pre-Inflation , nor the mechanism that caused it .

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Hi Eclipse

 

I don’t think you’re really listening here.  I posted where you made two contradictory statements about the time period you were discussing, one referred to after the start of inflation and the other referred to after inflation which is a different time.  I actually cut and pasted your own words saying contradictory things on this in my earlier post.  Then you use the term “Planck segment” which is not an actual measure so I have no idea where you found that one which also confuses this discussion and now you are talking about 10-43, of a second as if that was the start of inflation which actually began at around 10-36 some 9 orders of magnitude later than the Planck epoch and unrelated to your talk about a “Planck segment” which you referred to as being from the beginning of inflation, or after inflation at one point.  In this latest post you talk about 3 Planck segments after the beginning of inflation as if that had some significance but again this doesn’t make sense, inflation lasted from 10-36 to around 10-33 or 10-32 of a second after the initiating event, again that’s around 11 orders of magnitude larger that the figure you are giving so your story really isn’t adding up.  In fact none of what you have said adds up to a consistent picture nor does it conform to modern science.  Sorry but you aren’t really making a lot of sense here.

 

Still we are agreed that there are many hurdles to be overcome before we’ll really get a handle on what exactly happened at the beginning of this universe from the time around 10-43 of a second after the initiating event and for the next 10-36 of a second till the beginning of inflation.

 

As I’ve already explained the theories that attempt to describe the conditions before and during inflation do make testable predictions about this universe, about the Cosmic Microwave Background’s details for example, predictions that can and are being tested and the LHC can generate conditions that existed during inflation's latter stages giving us more insights into that epoch and that, in the end, is all that science ever claims to be able to do even for features of this universe that we experience every day.

 

Russell

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You posted what you claim were contradictory comments made by me , but my comments have remained the same, clearly and direct , you simply chose to mince words on Planck time . I know, that you knew exactly what I was talking about in defining at which point Science has no idea of what  conditions and physical laws of the present Universe were . That is why you created and continue to use a straw man .

 

Looking back to a point which was 3 [plank segments] of time or as you wish to express 10 -43 seconds AFTER the initial Inflation . Before that point no one knows anything . There is only conjecture and speculation .

 

 I think even a grade school student can understand what those words mean , as far as a description of my comments ,you however are having faux-problems understanding that . That is where you are being intentionally facetious in your argument .

 

So far the LHC has not illuminated anything  looking back beyond that contentious point in time after Inflation , nor pre-inflation conditions . Colliding electrons and protons at 99.9999 % of the speed of light will not shed light on conditions of the pre-inflation Universe , because no one knows what those conditions were .These experiments may well illuminate   more physical laws connected to Quantum Mechanics , and perhaps undermine existing laws or even produce new laws of physics ,changing our view of the Standard Model .  

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We should be using 'faith' to describe an idea that exists with no probabilistic support for it's validity.

'Speculative reason' is a term we should use to describe an idea with some probability of being true.

 

Creating hypothesis requires speculation. What is known is pitted against what is not and the outcome is knowledge/data.

What cannot be said, is that the ideas arrived at via faith, are equivalent in merit to those arrived at via speculation.

They are two completely different modes of interpreting data.

 

Will the Sun still be there tomorrow?

We have no evidence to believe otherwise, but do we know for sure (100%)?

Because of this, it might be said that 'I speculate that the Sun will be there tomorrow'.

But I wouldn't say that I am exercising faith in one way or another.

 

Speculation enjoys the company of testable data (yes or no answers), whereas faith does not.

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Donald_M , the discussion between Russell and I has nothing to do with faith .Open a different thread .The discussion is around the notion that Scientific theories ,hypotheses , and [Russell's "true ideas " ], as to what existed or the conditions that were present or necessary prior to 3 planck segments after the initial Inflation are anything but speculation and conjecture. Don't throw the word "probability " around too loosely Donald , as probability is based on similar occurrences , experiences , etc . We have none of those comparable to the present or past conditions and physical laws observed in the Universe . There are no ideas arrived at via faith as you put it . If there is no information , then it is cut and dry -no information . Speculation on this issue does not "enjoy " testable data . Faith is purely subjective , what we are discussing is purely objective .

  If two ancient men in a desert , came across a gigantic wall with huge locked  gates , no means of opening them , no cracks to peer through , and nothing in their experience resembling such a structure , nor knowing why it's there , then they may venture a guess as to what is behind it . That is called speculation ,and it is an analogy of what Russell is attempting to call something else , something which somehow validates such speculation .If one man says he knows there must be water and comfortable quarters behind that gate , he's sure of it , for that is what a man wandering the desert would hope , then THAT would be called "faith " . If the other said there could be an elephant or giraffe behind the gate based only on it's size , that would be called speculation. Truly there could be ANYTHING behind that gate .

 

   Well we have no experience of anything that would be a causal effect producing such an inflation as we observe in the Present Universe , we know of nothing in the way of states of matter or energy that would predicate such an Inflation as we observe in the present Universe . We have yet to explain the acceleration we observe let alone pre-inflation conditions . For science to say Dark Matter and Dark Energy are responsible based on our knowledge of gravity and mass , I would consider that a true idea , even though science has  ideas of where to look , and what to look for  , but nothing has yet been found . Looking for gravitational waves is another "true idea " as we have something to base these idea on . We have no idea of WHY anti-matter and matter do not exist in equal quantities , nor do we know why matter is not distributed evenly throughout the observed Universe instead of the irregularity  we observe .  None of these are questions of faith Donald. Don't come to me looking for an expression of faith , I am agnostic - I don't know , perhaps Russell can help you out there , since he seem's to be expressing a bit of faith , LOL... in what science speculates on .

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Isn't the name of this thread, 'the meaning of life'.

How do you guys expect to find purpose from all the way over here?

 

Why don't you start a thread on:

 

'The notion that Scientific theories ,hypotheses , and [Russell's "true ideas " ], as to what existed or the conditions that were present or necessary prior to 3 planck segments after the initial Inflation are anything but speculation and conjecture.'

 

Christ, man. You're in desperate need of some English lessons. And a dictionary (address ASAP).

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Good tactic Donald , change the subject to grammar. Sorry , but that statement did require an attention span of more than three seconds. Any fifth grader would have got it's meaning. I believe you haven't a clue as to what the issue was , that you decided to jump in on.

"The discussion is around the notion that scientific theories ,hypotheses, and [Russell's"true ideas"] , as to what existed or the conditions that were present or necessary prior to 3 planck segments after the initial inflation are anything but speculation and conjecture."

It is a long sentence , and probably a bit challenging for you. But after reading some of your other posts , no surprise.


p.s. you misquoted the sentence / and your own post haven't exactly been on subject either  -again no surprise there.


You have my sympathy.

Edited by ECLIPSE

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If you're not going to use words as they were intended,

you're likely to end up in a discussion of this type, often.

Regardless of whatever it is that you are doing.

 

There's no point in churning out paragraphs of material,

when the foundations of your 'points' are broken & useless.

 

This is another thread that has come to a crawl as a direct

result of the definition you have applied to various words.

 

And grow up.

It may be much easier to take you seriously if you're not

smearing all of your points with 'LOL' and 'fifth grader' and 'sympathy'.... etc.

 

Attack my points and use of language as much as you can.

Just try to give the impression that you are an adult, as you do.

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Uh , oh , looks like your ego has been bruised eh  Donald_M ? Now you flail out with insults . I guess you're used to people agreeing with you , or you resort to brow beating tactics . A sign of immaturity .

 

Sorry you had a meltdown Donald _M . You should have learned by now , that people other than yourself have different opinions . You have a lot of trouble accepting that . If the thread has "slowed to a crawl " , you also bear some responsibility . Yea , and I'll throw Russell under the bus too , for a word has not been mentioned as to the topic , although the issues discussed have been related peripherally , that is .

 I know it must have been frustrating to criticize a statement , then claim not to have understood it due to what you consider a grammatical error . I understand , you have a deficient understanding of the terms ,and growing impatience with my failure to agree with your point of view . Truly, did you not understand the sentence ?  Or was your frustration due to something else ?

 

Yes , you are certainly now behaving like an adolescent . You gloss over the fact , that your post, previous to mine ,where I claimed even a 5th grader could understand that sentence ,you made the statement  "you're in desperate need of some English  lessons ." 

 YOU chose to use insulting tone and language , so don't whine when you are answered in kind .

 

As to Who and Where the diversion  of the topic began ?   LOL.....read page 1 post # 6 . Who's kidding who here.. .....Donald_M ?

Edited by ECLIPSE

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Hi Eclipse

 

I’ll leave it to others to read what you wrote and see if it’s contradictory.  I posted two contradictory statements from you, word for word, so not much more info is probably needed.

 

Still moving on you talk about “3 plank segments after the beginning of inflation” and have been since we started, but what does that time have to do with anything.  From the moment of the big bang the Plank Epoch ran from 0 to 10-43 of a second or one Plank Second, before that we are currently completely incapable of working out what happened.  After that, there was a period from 10-43 of a second to 10-36 of a second, which is 10000000 Plank Seconds, till the beginning of inflation.  I’m not sure how your “3 Plank Segments” fits in there. You talk about “3 Plank Segments” after the beginning of inflation but inflation lasted from 10-36 till around 10-33 or 10-32 which is around 100000000000 Plank Seconds.  Again I’m not sure where your “3 Plank Segments” comes in here, it certainly doesn’t seem to fit in with anything what so ever that physicists talk about.  That’s why I have a problem with what you say.

 

This time you say “Looking back to a point which was 3 [plank segments] of time or as you wish to express 10 -43 seconds AFTER the initial Inflation.”  So you are still not getting closer to making any sense here.  10-43 seconds after the big bang was the Plank Epoch.  Inflation started long after that, around 100000 Plank Seconds after, as above.  3 doesn’t seem to fit in there no matter which way you slice it.

 

You are correct that before the end of the Plank Epoch we can’t know what happened at this stage. Who knows what the future of physics may hold but at the moment that appears to be a solid barrier to our understanding as, at that point, the size of the universe takes it beyond quantum uncertainty and so overrides any possible knowledge.  That time is a very long time, around 1000000 Plank Seconds, before the beginning of inflation.

 

You’re correct that the LHC has not pushed back our knowledge into the latter stages of inflation as yet but it has the power, mathematically calculated, to generate the energy required, I’ll let the future findings from that experiment come out before I make any predictions about what they may be able to tease out of it.

 

Russell

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Very simple Russell , would you agree that Physicists ,  Theoretical Physicists , and Cosmologists look at the Inflation and extrapolate backwards in time to a starting point in the Inflation ?   Of course you do , if not, than you're on another planet . And in the course of those calculations those scientist are in unanimous agreement , that all known physical laws , both Classical and Quantum break down at a point very shortly AFTER the Inflation . That point shortly After the initial Inflation has been universally claimed to be a very small amount of time . You yourself have stated that to be, 10 - 42 seconds approx. Have you not ?  Well that same period of time is also referred to as roughly 3 Planck segments , it has also been referred to as 3 Planck seconds .

      There is no need for you to agree with what I stated about the current available data from the LHC  . Anyone who keeps up with Science, through any number of accredited publications, is aware that no light has been shed on conditions or physical laws prior to that point in time after the Inflation started, which I have referred to as 3 Planck Segments or 3 plank seconds.

      That reference of Planck time can be viewed just as we view a light year , for there is both time and distance involved , though one is enormously large and the other 10-42 seconds  =3plack segments, is unimaginably small . Remember what a Planck unit is - the distance light travels in a vacuum for a duration of 1 Planck segment of time . And there is uncertainty there also because estimates as to the age or time passed since the initial inflation is ESTIMATED to be 13.8 Billion years , but vary to as high as 20 Billion years .

 

 So I simply state that NOTHING is known beyond, or if you will, BEFORE those 3 Planck seconds AFTER the initial Inflation . That is FACT Russell , no one knows a thing about the Universe before that very minute expanse of time after the Universe  began its Inflation . Theories , hypotheses , notions , and ideas regarding what conditions were , or what physical laws were operating before that point , are pure speculation and conjecture . No one knows Russell . You don't know , I don't know , and Science does not know .

 

I don't think it possible to make my point any clearer than that . Nor have I deviated from that point , unless of course you are taking note of the position of commas placed or un-identical sentences I used , stating exactly the same .

 

What you have just posted , simply agrees with what I've been stating all along , although your last paragraph mentioning 1000000 Planck Seconds is basically meaningless and irrelevant ,since it should be rather obvious to you that calculations have already brought us to 1000000 Planck seconds and beyond to 3 , AFTER the Inflation Started .

 

You are now referring to this as The Big Bang ??? It is already been established that there was no explosion , but rather the start of an Inflation . The Big Bang is simply a metaphor.  That aside , if Science claims to extrapolate conditions back to 10-43 [ also expressed 3Panck seconds ] 1000000 Planck seconds would numerically and in terms of time, a longer period after the Inflation than 3 Planck seconds . I don't know why you mentioned that  .

Edited by ECLIPSE

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Hi Eclipse

 

“…would you agree that Physicists ,  Theoretical Physicists , and Cosmologists look at the Inflation and extrapolate backwards in time to a starting point in the Inflation ?   Of course you do , if not, than you're on another planet .”  Well no actually I don’t agree but maybe our problem here is language.  I agree with theoretical physicists and cosmologists that they can look at this universe, model how inflation may have produced it and extrapolate to a point in time, that period of time between the start of inflation at 10-36 seconds and the end of the Planck Epoch at 10-43 of a second, after the big bang but before inflation started.  That’s what science tells us but that’s not what you have expressed above.  Inflation was not the first thing that happened after the big bang, it was not the first thing after the end of the Planck Epoch but rather it followed some 10-36 of a second or 1000000 Planck Seconds after that.

 

“…in the course of those calculations those scientist are in unanimous agreement , that all known physical laws , both Classical and Quantum break down at a point very shortly AFTER the Inflation .”  Again no but again that is possibly an issue with language though it may be a flaw in your understanding here as I’ve been trying to explain.  The point at which those laws break down irrevocably is the end of the Planck Epoch which was before inflation started but some time, 10-43 of a second, after the big bang.  So no again what you are saying is factually wrong.  You sound like you’ve read some of this stuff and you have gained some understanding but it’s rather sketchy or, as I said, maybe this is a language issue rather than ignorance.

 

“That point shortly After the initial Inflation has been universally claimed to be a very small amount of time . You yourself have stated that to be, 10 - 42 seconds approx. Have you not ?”  The time I pointed out was 10-43 of a second not 10-42 which is some 10-36 of a second before inflation began so no you have the sequence wrong here. It was actually, Big Bang, Planck Epoch (10-43 of a second), Beginning of our potential understanding, 10-36 of a second of time passes, then inflation began.

 

“Well that same period of time is also referred to as roughly 3 Planck segments , it has also been referred to as 3 Planck seconds.”  Now we are getting to the nub of your error here.  I can’t find any reference to Planck Segments but I get what you mean here, the actual limit of our potential understanding, the point at which quantum uncertainty destroyes our ability even in theory to work out what happens is that 10-43 of a second figure which is one Planck Second after the Big Bang not 3 but both of them are quite a long time, around 1000000 Planck Seconds before the beginning of inflation.

 

You may well be right about the big bang, to me it starts at the first moment of our universe, that point that predates the Planck Epoch but Inflation may well be a better point to reference.  Lets face it, it’s a very inaccurate term anyway and all of those times are so infinitessimally close together that no lay person could appreciate them. The term was, after all, invented by a reporter not a scientist, the actual event was neither big nor a bang.

 

Russell

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Russell

 My statement was quite clear and anyone interested in Astronomy , Cosmology or Physics , be they professional or amateur would easily understand what I have stated , what is known and what is not known. You obviously are having trouble . I can't help you with that .

 No doubt ,you have access to books and Libraries , not to mention Science Journals available in print or on line . Go read them . The more you speak , the more I believe you are confused in your own tangled explanations .

 There is too much information available for any serious inquirer to get it wrong . This is not new information .

 

Btw , your last paragraph is one total bucket of steam . You are simply using your own terms to describe what I have been stating in several previous posts .  Whether or not you say 10-43 seconds , or  3Planck Seg. or seconds ,is irrelevant , in that we are discussing the FACT, that before that segment of time which denotes a period   shortly AFTER the Inflation started , before that point ,we know nothing .Anything ventured as to what was, is speculation and nothing more . As of yet there is no physics or math that can describe conditions before that point .

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Hi Eclipse

 

So your claim is that your prior statements were quite clear is that about it?  Quite clear yet I’ve posted copies of your words contradicting yourself.  Quite clear yet they don’t conform to the time line I’ve been explaining from the scientific consensus on this question and you just keep saying I’m agreeing with you stating that if I want to call a planck segment 10-43 of a second that’s fine by you but I’m not calling a planck segment 10-43 of a second, I’m pointing out that scientists claim that we can’t, even in theory, work out what happened in the Planck Epoch which ran from 0 to 10-43 of a second from the initiating event of this universe and finished long before inflation began.  You go on to claim that the end of that time, which you call three planck segments after the start of inflation, is the time at which we can start to know something about this universe but inflation itself starts a long time, around 100000 planck seconds, after the end of the Planck Epoch and inflation ran for around 1000000000 Planck Seconds so what your three planck segments has to do with anything seems to be anybody’s guess.

 

So this is you being “quite clear”, OK we’ll have to agree to disagree on that claim before we can start on the rest of that.

 

As for my last paragraph do you have a problem with me agreeing with you about calling the start of inflation the start of the big bang or that I pointed out that the term big bang, which was very small indeed and very smooth so neither big nor a bang was invented by a reporter.  Which part of that gives you trouble?

 

Russell

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