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Islam And The Future Of Tolerance

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I don't have a problem with the definition of  murder Donald . One need not take an exam to determine what is murder or what is wrong . Apparently you are an exception . And you , holding your views as expressed here , are hardly in a position to pontificate .

 Why not simplify your arduous dance :

 Murder =Wrong  , forget all that bunk about exams and correct etc .

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So, if I gave you an example of a 'murder' that could not be considered 'wrong' (in all circumstances).

 

Then you would be 'wrong', 'right'?

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Nice fail, Eclipse.

 

 

But if a killing, further refined as a murder, is of benefit or good to ANYONE else. Then it cannot be objectively 'wrong' can it?

 

If it is objectively true, that murder is objectively wrong, then please provide the evidence?

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Donald_M , seriously ?  You are truly a confused individual . I'm sure you have access to a library , where you can find books written on ethics . I do not doubt that your views on Murder vs Killing are a bit strange , indeed - contorted . Perhaps not enough examples have been made available to or provided you in your mental development .  Hopefully for your own sake , in the course of your life ,you will not be tested in any serious situation, to the point , where your ideas of this sort come into play with any real consequences .  

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If it is objectively true, that murder is objectively wrong, then please provide the evidence.

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Is it "objectively true " that rape is   "objectively " wrong ?  Do you have a rationale that differs ?

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Hi Eclipse

 

Rape is wrong, I agree, but is it objectively wrong, is it wrong if there are no people?  If it’s objectively wrong it must be wrong even if there are no people.   There would be no Koala’s if it wasn’t for rape, that’s their method of procreation, she’ll try her hardest to beat him up and stop him only if he’s strong enough to overpower her will he be able to inseminate her.  So in what way is rape ‘objectively’ wrong?

 

Russell

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Well Russell , you must  be a Koala huh ?  If there are no people ?    LOLOLOL...are you serious Russell ?  That statement should go on record as the most ludicrous ever , whether you're defending or opposing rape .

 

WOW !!

 

 Are you related to Donald_M ?    Was Donald_ M a room mate in college with you ?  

 

 

I'm saving that post for posterity's sake .

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I'm sorry Russell , but I have not yet stopped laughing at your last post . Tell me , how do you know if the Koala's were not just play raping , you know, the female Koala role playing for greater thrills .

 

Trust me Russell , that was no challenge , not today , not ever . I really must restrain myself in giving the answer that "challenge " of yours deserves ......but I would diminish myself by doing so , indeed  even by humoring you with a reply .

 

I want you to think about what you said Russell . And think about the question - ' Is rape objectively wrong ' ? And the ludicrous analogy you posed . Remember Russell , there are also many other animals that engage in non-consensual sex , and in many cases it can get violent and outright dangerous . You are aware of that , right ?

 

 I will say this much though , if you can not say rape  [ and we're talking about humans here Russell ]  is objectively wrong , then you've got a problem that I certainly can't solve . You are taking great liberty using the word  "objectively " far beyond it's intended usage and meaning .

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Hi Eclipse

 

Maybe Koala’s just like it rough, is that your thought?  It certainly doesn’t fit with observation, if she’s strong enough she will, and often does, succeed in fighting him off so that doesn’t seem like a likely answer here.  And the wounds on both of their bodies don’t look like part of some rough love play.  Yes Koala’s are far from unique in the animal kingdom in this respect forced sex is part of the repertoire of quite a few animals.  None of that says that it’s right or wrong of course and that’s your sticking point.  I agree that rape is wrong by the way as I said last time I’m just waiting for you to prove that it’s objectively wrong and that human opinion on it does not play a part, in other words it is not subjectively driven.

 

Given you have such a problem with my usage of the term “objective” maybe you should define it in your own words so we all know what you are talking about here.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote no answers in there really so I won’t comment.

 

Russell

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Just as well Russell , I really don't think you can surpass yourself . Yes you have taken liberty with the word objective . Since animals do what they do by instinct , one can not really say there is any thing subjective or objective as to their reproductive instincts .Animals do what animals do .

 Humans on the other hand are creatures that operate not by instinct but by desire when it comes to the subject of rape . rape is always wrong , you can not be objective or subjective . It is not a question of either ,when it comes to determining it's wrong .  It's what is known as a no brainer .

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Run along Donald_M , you've already proven yourself incapable of any serious rational  discussion on this matter . And no I didn't click on your link . I don't click on anyone's links , as any position under the sun, no matter how skewed or ludicrous , [like yours ] will find  some hair-brain on the net to agree .

 

maybe you can offer it to Russell , who seems to be closer to your mentality on such issues .  

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Not interested in understanding your own fallacies?

Not capable of responding to questions that compete with your ideology?

 

'And no I didn't click on your link. I don't click on anyone's links'

 

Hahahaha! What a waste of time.

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I don't waste time on arguments that try hard to sound intellectual ,but are in fact just juvenile banter . I know you think that you are portraying yourself as some sort of professorial sage , but you're arguments are absurd and border on the  infantile . Yes , you are a waste of time .

 

Murder is wrong

Rape is wrong

 

Tell me genius , what ideology is involved in that ??? Both you and Russell  are not spouting any "competing ideology " , you're both spouting semantic nonsense and absurdities . You both give yourselves too much credit .Your egos are easily bruised .

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Keep it up, Eclipse.

You're doing a great job.

Bravo!

 

You don't have to click the link;

Instead. Just remember the name of the fallacy.

And the next time it comes up,

you'll know exactly where you went wrong.

 

It is a common error. Don't beat yourself up about it.

 

Have a lovely day.

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I take kudos as well as criticism , considering first the source . Coming from you , either is meaningless .  You're laughable Donald , and nothing more than entertainment .

 I always have a lovely day .

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Hi Eclipse

 

Since you won’t define objective let me give you the dictionary definition.

 

Objective

  • not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased:
  • intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
  • being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject (opposed to subjective ).
  • of or relating to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

 

As you can see the base distinction between objective and subjective is that of mind, if its objective it is independent of mind so mental states don’t influence it and it would be true in the complete absance of mind while subjective things are dependant on a mind.  We’ve talked about murder and you’ve admitted that minds play a part, at least around the edges, of forming its definition, different cultures form different lines between murder and justified killing.  In other word mind plays a part in defining murder which makes it, by the English dictionary definition, subjective.  Of course please, if you can, try to define these terms by reference to an English dictionary, to see if you can find a form that fits with the argument you are making then maybe we can move this discussion forwards.

 

Russell

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Russell , to look at something objectively , means to look at it with out partiality or bias , save all your other patented fluff .

  Murder is just what your dictionary says it is , and it is wrong , rape [among humans ] is wrong .

 

I've made it simple for you . You don't have to agree , nor do I care if you agree . Those two acts are more or less universally accepted as wrong , and their definitions agreed upon .

 

 Would anyone disagree ? Of course , murderers and rapists would , and of course wannabee word game specialists like you and Donald_M could sit here for days distorting the issue .

 Perhaps you require an audience of Koalas to drive your point home .

 

 

p.s. I didn't think I had to define objective for you, but more and more, you prove that assumption wrong . You post blather , and are at your best dueling with others who cut and paste like Andalusi and his numerical numbers deal ,producing tons of blather .  You're a joker , and nothing more .

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Hi Eclipse

 

“to look at something objectively , means to look at it with out partiality or bias” - Eclipse

 

Yes I agree with that but we were talking about what the term objective means not what an objective view of something is so you have missed the mark here.  I agree by the way that the dictionary definition of Murder is correct but it defines murder as based on human ideas, on the law of the land, which is subjective so you are confusing these terms that’s why I asked you to define them.

 

I agree also that the definitions of murder and rape are almost universally accepted though as we’ve discussed in this thread the edges of murder are fuzzy so it’s not a hard objective fact rather, as the dictionary defines it and as I believe, it is a subjective thing based in human ideas, in the law of the land, which is a human invention.

 

Yes murderers and rapists may well disagree about the definitions but so would those living in other countries under other political systems so the subjective nature is pretty clear here and you’ve said nothing to counter that in this thread so far other than to blather about how foolish I am for not accepting your view based solely on your word despite its many clear flaws.

 

Normally you would not have to define objective but you’re use of it contradicts my understanding of it and the definition in the dictionaries I have consulted on it so it was necessary.  As you can see above you defined “objective view” rather than “objective” so your error is clearer now so it was a worthwhile exercise.

 

Russell

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Contribute Russell ? are you serious ?  All you've got is B.S .and verbal ballet . Sorry you are in your moral dilemma regarding murder and rape .  I do not contribute to the joke which is your argument . I'll leave the "contributions to you " .

 Go ahead an explain to whoever still affords you any credibility , your ideas on murder  and rape . As far as I'm concerned you're a blabbering joker .

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