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So, Who Then Created The Qur’An?!

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We have, manuscripts in koine Greek. Jesus never wrote any Gospel because He Himself is the Gospel. There was never any Injil such as you believe, if there were there would be evidence of its existence. There is no such evidence however, there are thousands of Greek manuscripts. The language of the New Testament. In addition to the manuscripts in the original languages, Bibles have also been translated into Greek, Aramaic, Coptic, Armenian, Gothic and Ethiopian all before the birth of Mohammad, these translations confirm both the Hebrew OT and Greek NT manuscripts. The translations make it impossible for the Bible to be changed after Mohammad, because the scriptures were widespread even before Mohammad was born.

 

We have ~

 

1. The Septuagint (Greek), which 250 B.C.

2. Three versions of the New Testament and one of the Old into Syriac. Of these, two are of especial value. The first of these is called the Curetonian, from the name of the discoverer of the ancient MS. which contains it. This version was made at latest in the second century after Christ: the MS.1 was written in the fifth century. The second is the Peshiþþå, made at latest in the third century: the oldest MS. of it which we have was written in the fifth century. Even the third, or Philoxenian version, was made long before Muhammad's time, in 508 A.D.

3. Three Coptic versions: the Buøairic , made in the second or third century; the Sahidic, and the Bashmuric or Middle Egyptian, both probably of the same date. The oldest Coptic MSS. belong to the fourth or fifth century. These three Coptic versions are in the three chief dialects of ancient Egypt.

4. Two Latin versions; one the Old Latin, made in the second century. We have MSS. of its remains which date from the fourth and fifth centuries. The other is the Vulgate, a more correct translation made by Jerome A.D. 383-5. He translated the Old Testament from the Hebrew, whereas the Old Latin was translated from the Greek version. The oldest MS. of the Vulgate was written before A.D. 5464.

5. The Ancient Armenian, made by Mesrob and published in A.D. 436.

6. The Gothic, made by Ulphilas, who died A.D. 381. The MSS.2 of it date from the end of the fifth to the middle of the sixth century.

7. The Ethiopic, made by Frumentius in the fourth century .

8. Several Aramaic versions of the Old Testament made by Jews in the second and third centuries.

 

So

Blessings

So, you agree that Jesus original language which he spoke and transfer his original message with was Aramaic/Hebrew. and Christian have nothing (absolute zero) written in the original language?

what could be the reason in your opinion

were Jesus' followers including the 12 disciples were illiterate?

or what they did write wasn't accepted by the new comers to Christianity from Greek, so they destroyed it?

or others...

 

We

 

So when it comes to evidence for the Bible and Muslim claims of its unreliability or corruption we have plenty for proof of its truth and you have nothing except conjecture and supposition against it. Except of course for your burning need to prove the Bible wrong because it brings a different message to the Qur'an, and both can't be true when it comes to the core message.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus#Scribes_and_correctors

you may need to have a look at one of these (non-changed) manuscripts. This is the oldest completest one you have, I don't have to explain, just read the title of the page. it takes about series (es) of CORRECTIONS.......

1-why do the infallible word of god need to be corrected every now and then?

2- Quoted "the correction is concluded to have been made in Caesarea Maritima in the 6th or 7th centuries.[81] The pervasive iotacism, especially of the ει diphthong, remains uncorrected". you don't need to relate these changes to the appearance and domination of Islam!! could be any other logic reason, like what?!

 

 

We

 

Oh Mr Erhman.. And I should take the opinion of an atheist on scripture because? None of the interpolations (which all Christendom knows about) change the core message of the gospels.

 

Blessings

So adding tons of verses (end of Mark) and stories (adultery woman) and concepts (three witnesses )....... etc, is Nothing?!

 

We

I said the Bible did I not? However, the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in the New Testament, so it is kind of relevant.

 

The Book of Isaiah. It's full of messianic prophecies and is intact in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I understand Isaiah is not mentioned as a prophet in the Qur'an, this I find rather strange given the fact he was a major prophet. Do you want verses? If so showing what aspect?

 

Blessings

So, you agree that those people have no idea about the appearance of the crucified god nor his story (gospel). I mean in real life, not OT!!!

 

prophecies were already fulfilled 40 years ago (considering the generation who lived from 33 to 71 AD)......and they were still reading about it in OT?!!!

they didn't see or hear about the crucified god?

not a single verse of the NT were leaked to them?

do you think they were hibernating ?

We

There is no contradiction in the story of his calling, just your misinterpretation.

 

Blessings

Tell I copy the three different stories of his conversion (which we received it only from him!), you tell me if those who accompanied him, did they hear the voice? or see the light? or not

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So, you agree that Jesus original language which he spoke and transfer his original message with was Aramaic/Hebrew. and Christian have nothing (absolute zero) written in the original language? what could be the reason in your opinionwere Jesus' followers including the 12 disciples were illiterate? or what they did write wasn't accepted by the new comers to Christianity from Greek, so they destroyed it?or others...

Why would you suppose Jesus did not also know Koine Greek? It was widely spoken in at that time. Is you issue you believe it's not possible to translate a message from one language into another without its meaning being lost? If this is so, what of the Muslims who don't speak Arabic and use a translation of the Qur'an in their mother tongue? Are they missing the message of the Qur'an? The original language the gospels was first committed to the written word was Koine Greek. No, the disciples were not illiterate. But is illiteracy a barrier to revelation? From your point of view obviously not, so I don't know why you even mention it. Who are the newcomers? The Gentiles?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus#Scribes_and_correctorsyou may need to have a look at one of these (non-changed) manuscripts. This is the oldest completest one you have, I don't have to explain, just read the title of the page. it takes about series (es) of CORRECTIONS.......1-why do the infallible word of god need to be corrected every now and then?2- Quoted "the correction is concluded to have been made in Caesarea Maritima in the 6th or 7th centuries.[81] The pervasive iotacism, especially of the ει diphthong, remains uncorrected". you don't need to relate these changes to the appearance and domination of Islam!! could be any other logic reason, like what?!

Are you trying to say here, that because some over zealous scribes may have added something to a manuscript the message was changed beyond all recognition from what was originally intended? Ergo Islam came along with a new different message. Try as I might I can't see the logic there at all. That's tantamount to claiming God can't or won't protect His revelation from change by His creation. It's a ludicrous scenario!! The Bible is quite clear that none can change Gods word, that Gods word is eternal. In fact I believe the Qur'an also says the same. So why would you think mankind has the power to go against Gods word?

 

So adding tons of verses (end of Mark) and stories (adultery woman) and concepts (three witnesses )....... etc, is Nothing?! 

Correct. Unless it changes the core message it is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Just saying so you don't waste your time using this argument hoping to convert someone to Islam.

 

So, you agree that those people have no idea about the appearance of the crucified god nor his story (gospel). I mean in real life, not OT!!!prophecies were already fulfilled 40 years ago (considering the generation who lived from 33 to 71 AD)......and they were still reading about it in OT?!!!they didn't see or hear about the crucified god?not a single verse of the NT were leaked to them?do you think they were hibernating ?

No I don't agree at all. Read the book of Isaiah maybe you will see what I mean.

 

 

Tell I copy the three different stories of his conversion (which we received it only from him!), you tell me if those who accompanied him, did they hear the voice? or see the light? or not

Say you were in a crowd of people witness to an event unfolding before your eyes. Say a bank robbery for example.. Would everyone in the group give an identical testimony of what they saw and heard? If they did I would be both surprised and suspicious. Because each person would see the event from their own perspective, their view of what they saw and heard would not be identical. Hope you see what I mean. :)

 

Blessings

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Why would you suppose Jesus did not also know Koine Greek? It was widely spoken in at that time. Is you issue you believe it's not possible to translate a message from one language into another without its meaning being lost? If this is so, what of the Muslims who don't speak Arabic and use a translation of the Qur'an in their mother tongue? Are they missing the message of the Qur'an? The original language the gospels was first committed to the written word was Koine Greek. No, the disciples were not illiterate. But is illiteracy a barrier to revelation? From your point of view obviously not, so I don't know why you even mention it. Who are the newcomers? The Gentiles?

 

:)

 

Blessings

 

Then, I agree let's say Jesus spoke in Koine Greek (although according to historians and archaeological findings this language never been used in that area of the world, but lets say your hybosis are right) but let's say he got educated it at some where. Oh my, he is a god and sure, he spoke in Greek, Chinese, Arabic and in different tongues like the blessed priests. But the questions here

1- Did he speak in his and his people mother tongue languages (Hebrew and Aramaic)?

2- if yes, why those followers write nothing in their language?

3- if they did, why we have nothing in his mother language? 

4- If Jesus spoke in Greek, why it is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. something like " Oh, I heard this great teacher speaks in Greek to such people...."?

 

 

W

Are you trying to say here, that because some over zealous scribes may have added something to a manuscript the message was changed beyond all recognition from what was originally intended? Ergo Islam came along with a new different message. Try as I might I can't see the logic there at all. That's tantamount to claiming God can't or won't protect His revelation from change by His creation. It's a ludicrous scenario!! The Bible is quite clear that none can change Gods word, that Gods word is eternal. In fact I believe the Qur'an also says the same. So why would you think mankind has the power to go against Gods word?

 

 

It's not about zealous scribes? these corruptions (corrections) were constitutional, it's made by the highest religious leaders, the documents has been moved to casarean town far away with all the difficulties and dangerous possibilities in areas controlled by Muslems.   It coincide with many other ((corrections)) happened at the same time at the same town.

 

let's assume a zealous scribes did it, they gone over the infallible god's word to correct it to him, where is the god at this time, didn't he promised to break the backbone f those who will add or remove from his word? 

 

 

W

No I don't agree at all. Read the book of Isaiah maybe you will see what I mean.

:)

 

Blessings

 

I red it, 5 times. but what you are proposing has nothing to do with the question at all!!!!!!!!!

my question is did those people in the dead sea area some 20 miles away from the god area, who live 200 years before him and about 40 more years after his death.

 

1-did they mention any thing about the indecent (something like, Oh my the god has been betrayed by his father and killed today)? the clear answer is NO....then why do you think?

2-did they mention any part of the NT (just two verses ), the answer is NO......my question to you is....WHY? 

3- why they know nothing about the NT or the corssified god? they talk only about  teacher of light?

 

 

 

W

 

Say you were in a crowd of people witness to an event unfolding before your eyes. Say a bank robbery for example.. Would everyone in the group give an identical testimony of what they saw and heard? If they did I would be both surprised and suspicious. Because each person would see the event from their own perspective, their view of what they saw and heard would not be identical. Hope you see what I mean.  :)

 

Blessings

 

 you are right, only,  if the story is told by different people (Paul-1, Paul-2 and Paul-3). BUT the case here is that, the same witness (Saul/Paul) told it in three different ways, her is the big problem? now, the problem will transfer to the inspector/judge if he trusted this witness!!

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Then, I agree let's say Jesus spoke in Koine Greek (although according to historians and archaeological findings this language never been used in that area of the world, but lets say your hybosis are right) but let's say he got educated it at some where. Oh my, he is a god and sure, he spoke in Greek, Chinese, Arabic and in different tongues like the blessed priests. But the questions here

1- Did he speak in his and his people mother tongue languages (Hebrew and Aramaic)?

2- if yes, why those followers write nothing in their language?

3- if they did, why we have nothing in his mother language? 

4- If Jesus spoke in Greek, why it is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. something like " Oh, I heard this great teacher speaks in Greek to such people...."?

I'm having difficulty understanding your problem over language. First, actually, it was very likely that Jesus and His followers spoke no fewer be than these three languages: Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew. why do we know this? Well...

 

Aramaic was the primary language of the land, Greek was the language of business, education, and for communication with foreigners (because it was a wide-spread language), and Hebrew was the religious language of the Jews and was primarily reserved for prayers, religious teaching, and communication with other Jews. Of course Jesus would having spoken to His followers in their mother tongue. However, that's not the issue here. Jesus did not write any Gospel, Jesus was never given a Gospel, Jesus WAS the Gospel, He was the Gospel (good news) that others wrote about.

 

So why did they choose Greek?

 

The primary reason would be portability. Greek was a very wide-spread language. Hebrew and Aramaic were not. Further, after Peter had an encounter with Gentiles that had him declare that the message of Christ's resurrection was for the Gentile too, it became an international matter that all hear the Good News. Greek was the language that made sense. It was wide-spread, it was for the foreigner, and the Jew knew it as well. Greek was the language that would affect the most people. Which was the main objective... Taking the Good News (Gospel) to ALL mankind.

 

Why would you expect to find what language Jesus spoke recorded in the Bible? It doesn't say He spoke Hebrew or Aramaic either, but we can assume He did because of the time and place He lived. It's a shame your preoccupation with the actual language is preventing you from seeing the message.

 

If you're so concerned with language I'll repeat my question to you which you may have missed. - what of the Muslims who don't speak Arabic and use a translation of the Qur'an in their mother tongue? Are they missing the message of the Qur'an?

 

It's not about zealous scribes? these corruptions (corrections) were constitutional, it's made by the highest religious leaders, the documents has been moved to casarean town far away with all the difficulties and dangerous possibilities in areas controlled by Muslems.   It coincide with many other ((corrections)) happened at the same time at the same town.

What are the dangerous possibilities in areas controlled by Muslims? Dangerous for whom? You seem to be implying that the Bible was changed because of your prophet bringing Islam. But we have proof that the Bible as it is now is the same Bible that existed centuries before your prophet came with Islam. In fact, I don't believe your prophet or the first Muslims ever thought the Bible had been corrupted. Or it's message changed. This charge of corruption came from Muslims much later long after your prophet had died, maybe because they realised that the message of the Qur'an was not the same as the Bible and both can't be true, seeing as the Qur'an came later it has to prove itself. Muslims have been trying for centuries to prove the Bibles corruption, but have come up with nothing. If the Bible was corrupted and it's message lost then surely you would find and be able to offer proof of this fact, you can't and you will never be able to. Because the Bibles message is consistant and unchanged because it is from God.

 

let's assume a zealous scribes did it, they gone over the infallible god's word to correct it to him, where is the god at this time, didn't he promised to break the backbone f those who will add or remove from his word? 

 

 never heard of any promise of breaking backbones. It does say that anyone changes Gods word will have their name removed from the book of life. Or something to that effect.

 

I red it, 5 times. but what you are proposing has nothing to do with the question at all!!!!!!!!!

my question is did those people in the dead sea area some 20 miles away from the god area, who live 200 years before him and about 40 more years after his death.

 

1-did they mention any thing about the indecent (something like, Oh my the god has been betrayed by his father and killed today)? the clear answer is NO....then why do you think?

2-did they mention any part of the NT (just two verses ), the answer is NO......my question to you is....WHY? 

3- why they know nothing about the NT or the corssified god? they talk only about  teacher of light?

 

 I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding your point here. Prophet Isaiah foretold of Jesus' crucifixion 800 years before it happened. The Old Testament prophets would have no reason to mention the New Testament, they would have had no knowledge of its existence. They talked of what was revealed to them. The OT prophecies were fulfilled in the NT - by Jesus. Think of it this way.. The Old Testament looked forward to Jesus the Christ, the promised Saviour, the prophets were types and shadows of Christ. The New Testament looks back and records the birth, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. There is only Him, there is no need of any other. it started with Jesus and ended with Jesus.. Even the Qur'an confirms this. It's Jesus that will return in judgement.

  

 you are right, only,  if the story is told by different people (Paul-1, Paul-2 and Paul-3). BUT the case here is that, the same witness (Saul/Paul) told it in three different ways, her is the big problem? now, the problem will transfer to the inspector/judge if he trusted this witness!!

Do you have the actual verses that show Paul Himself told the same story in three different versions? Because I only know of the one. But really I don't know why you guys stress so much about Paul. Blaming him for all sorts of stuff. He had a job to do which was to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, this he did quite successfully. End of.

 

Blessings

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