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Malthus And Overpopulation

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Peace brothers,

 

It seems to me that Malthus and his ideas are underestimated in the West. But in the Muslim world I do not even know if Malthus is known. Has Malthus been translated into Arab?

 

What do Muslims know and think about Malthus?

 

What do Muslims think about overpopulation?

 

Salam

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Peace brothers,

 

It seems to me that Malthus and his ideas are underestimated in the West. But in the Muslim world I do not even know if Malthus is known. Has Malthus been translated into Arab?

 

What do Muslims know and think about Malthus?

 

What do Muslims think about overpopulation?

 

Salam

I am not a muslim, so I don't think I am qualified to answer this question. In spite of that, I will give you my understanding. This fear of not having enough natural resources because of overpopulation is a legitimate fear, he wrote his essays in the 18 century and at that time, this was not a problem, but as our world approaches 7 billion people, with life expectancy increasing how much can our earth handle? It took mankind 123 years to go from 1 billion to 2 billion people, it took us 12 years to go from 5 billion to 6 billion, that is incredible. There is little to do to prevent this problem, people are living longer we are healthier. I don't know if there are any studies done to show how much this earth can handle.

If we look at overpopulation, it not only affects our earth and natural resourses, it affects the unemployment rate, the amount of potential employees increases, where the jobs are not there, it also increases crime and increases the susceptibility of disease, it decreases economic growth. How can this be prevented? Many religions abhor the use of any type of birth control and we cannot expect two people who are married to practice abstinance . China has a decent plan, one child per family, but then they have a problem of aborting female fetuses to get the all mighty son.

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Salam brothers,

 

Thank you Curiousbud. Though you are not a Muslim your post is welcome, specially because you agree with me :D

 

Yes it is a pity that only a part of the world started birth control in the sixties, mainly Europe, the richest countries, I suppose because we could pay anticonceptives. I do not know what has been happening since then. Perhaps rich countries have offered to help poor countries to reduce population, I know Swedish doctors have been in India sterilizing people who did not want more children, but I do not think poor countries have shown much interest in general. Unfortunately. Now, two generations later, we have what we have.

 

I have found something that I consider interesting, in

 

"overpopulation#####/"]overpopulation####

#/[/url]

 

The Numbers Game - Myths, Truths and Half-Truths About Human Population Growth and the Environment.

 

To ignore population as a central issue while talking about sprawl, air and water pollution, loss of biodiversity, agricultural land and animal habitat, global warming and many other crucial environmental issues - is to deny reality. Yet it's one that the green movement ignores for fear of alienating a public that may associate family planning with abortion or see attempts to curb immigration as racist, but the numbers of people added to the planet each year roll back any progress made by conservation measures. March 01, 2004 E Magazine

 

Only in recent history has humankind discovered the means with which to increase the average human lifespan and reduce infant mortality rate: sanitation practices and modern medicines. With these discoveries, we have multiplied our numbers faster than ever before, going from 1 billion to 2 billion in only 123 years, such a brief moment in human history. As is the nature of unchecked growth, the momentum accelerated and the world went from 5 billion people to 6 billion in only 12 short years. The balance of nature has been drastically upset and the environment is already paying the price. The good news is that mankind has made another discovery, this one to check birth rates: modern contraceptives. This, coupled with the desire to have fewer children, (since now so many children are living beyond infancy) has led to a decline in birth rates, starting in the 1960s. Abstinence, delaying of marriage, education, contraceptives, empowerment of women, and the funding of family planning and reproductive health the world over will alleviate the population momentum that will result from 2 billion young people entering their child-bearing years. ... k gaia

 

 

"It's not because people started breeding like rabbits.

It's that they stopped dying like flies."

... Nicholas Eberstadt, a demographer at the American Enterprise Institute.

 

The world is growing by more than 76 million people a year. At the current rate of growth, even accounting for a continual decrease in the growth rate, the world population is headed for double digits within 50 years. Every 20 minutes, the world adds another 3,500 human lives but loses one or more entire species of animal or plant life - at least 27,000 species per year. The world population has doubled in the last 40 years. It took just 12 years to leap from 5 billion to 6 billion. It took about 18 centuries for the earth to reach its first one billion inhabitants. The world is adding a city the size of Los Angeles every two weeks.

 

Birth rates are falling worldwide but death rates are declining even faster. A tiny fraction - only 7 percent - of the world's people live in countries where population is not growing.

 

If fertility remained at current levels, the population would reach the absurd figure of 296 billion in just 150 years. Even if it dropped to 2.5 children per woman and then stopped falling, the population would still reach 28 billion.

 

1.2 billion people worldwide are living on $1.00 a day or less.

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Many industrialized nations already have negative population growth. The third world is rapidly slowing it's growth rates.

 

Many, including the UN, are predicting wordwide overall population growth rates to turn negative about 2050.

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peace.

 

i havent heard of the mathus thing but i remember going into the overpopulation thing at school. basically countries like india pakistan ect have more children so the perents are looked after in old age. also we got taught that dispite the measures china has adopted to control the population, there not actually working. i remember we we given a handout with the pridection population amount for the next how many years, and then a list of what the popluation actually was for those years pridected. i clearly remember that they were WAYYYYY off. which makes u wonder the rate of population had there been no one child law. :D

 

peace

 

a'isha

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Peace brothers,

 

It seems to me that Malthus and his ideas are underestimated in the West. But in the Muslim world I do not even know if Malthus is known. Has Malthus been translated into Arab?

 

What do Muslims know and think about Malthus?

 

What do Muslims think about overpopulation?

 

Salam

 

Peace Asking!

 

I have been down with severe attack of flu, and hence have not been spending time on the Forum.

 

I shall answer you very briefly here.

 

The first error you make is of mixing Arabs with Muslims. These are two separate entities. Arabs are people who live in an area, irrespective of their religion. Muslims are people who practice Islam as their religion, irrespective of where they live.

 

As for Malthus, his theory is very pessimistic. Islam discourages pessimsim. Every person is brought into this world with a mouth and two hands to feed it with. Allh :D is the Providor and He will never let any people suffer unless it is as a punishment or a trial.

 

Unfortunately, the world's resources have not been properly exploited, thanks to incompetence and bad planning. This is the crux of the problem. Try and see the comparison of area cultivated and output of any underdeveloped country and a developed country and you will know. The underdeveloped are from every religion.

 

A factor that is going to affect the west severely is a shortage of working population. They have controlled their birth-rate and improved on medical facilities, resulting in increased life-expectancy. The result is disaster.

 

Peace out

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assalaamu alaykum,

 

Allah will provide, de-salination plants and farming the deserts could provide huge amounts of extra food.

 

and how much food is the EU and america destroying each year to keep the food prices high for their farming communities?

 

there is plenty more le-way yet and when it does run out i am sure we will have had a few wars to even things out by then.

 

what the environmentalists do not tell you is that when they say they only want 1million people in the UK when it is approaching 60million is that they are seriously talking about eugenics and mass extermination.

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Salam brothers

 

1.2 billion people worldwide are living on $1.00 a day or less.

 

Allah will provide.

 

Same way as Allah is providing now?

 

Same way as Allah provided the tens of millions who died of starvation in the twentieth century?

 

So Allah will solve everything, and we do not need to do anything?

 

Trust Allah, but tie the camel.

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Salam brothers.

 

Sorry for the mistake. When I said "tens of millions" I should have said "hundreds of millions".

 

From humane:

 

In the last 50 years, almost 400 million people worldwide have died from hunger and poor sanitation, according to the report. That's three times the number of people killed in all wars fought in the entire 20th century.

 

Of course, there are people who seem to think that war is the best system of population control.

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Salam brothers

 

1.2 billion people worldwide are living on $1.00 a day or less.

 

Allah will provide.

 

Same way as Allah is providing now?

 

Same way as Allah provided the tens of millions who died of starvation in the twentieth century?

 

So Allah will solve everything, and we do not need to do anything?

 

Trust Allah, but tie the camel.

Peace Asking!

 

You just picked one statement in my post and started harping on it. See the whole post and judge for yourself.

 

The first point I made was of your confusing Arabs and Muslims. Now you are guilty of confusing the whole underdeveloped world with Muslims. Do you know how many of the 1.2 billion are Muslims? The statistics will show that you are harping on the wrong tune.

 

The second point I made was about pessimism, and the disallowance of it in Islam. This is a very positive thing in Islam. We never despair.

 

The third point I made was that of non-utilisation of world's resources. Brother dawud_uk further elaborated on it. The output per area of cultivation is low in the underdeveloped world. Why doesn't the developed world do something to rectify this bad governance instead of harping on poverty and democracy. By the way, do you know that these people can survive on $1 per day and are more content than the westerner who is heavily into debt and cannot repay it faster than he can borrow.

 

The fourth point was regarding the grave fall in bread earners to maintain the social security systems in the west.

 

Peace out.

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Salam brothers.

 

Sorry for the mistake. When I said "tens of millions" I should have said "hundreds of millions".

 

From humane(contact admin if its a beneficial link):

 

In the last 50 years, almost 400 million people worldwide have died from hunger and poor sanitation, according to the report. That's three times the number of people killed in all wars fought in the entire 20th century.

 

Of course, there are people who seem to think that war is the best system of population control.

Peace Asking!

 

Details of the 400 million will show that the majority are not Muslims. And, if they are, it is because of bad governance for which the west is responsible for having propped up incompetent rulers who would toe their line.

 

Peace out.

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1.2 billion people worldwide are living on $1.00 a day or less.

 

Where did the 'West' get its riches from? Colonialisaiton and leeching the blood of the East.

 

Imagine placing a 50-pound featherweight boy with one hand tied behind his back into a ring with a 500-pound sumo wrestler, expecting the boy to compete against this colossal giant. "How absurd! Anyone can see they are grossly mismatched. Why, the boy doesn't stand a chance," observers might remark. However, this is precisely the scheme by which the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank operate in over 60 Third World countries. When due to inflationary oil prices or hard economic times, developing nations suddenly find themselves in urgent need of money and soon discover they have no other place to turn for a bailout except to the largest, monopolistic loan sharks on the block, formally known as the IMF and World Bank. In their desperation for a cash infusion, leaders of these struggling communities end up signing the Faustian Bargain which virtually turns over control of their country's economy and government to the interests of the multinational corporations and major industrialized countries that underwrite the World Bank bonds which float these loans. Under the threat of being cut off from any and all forms of international borrowing, financially strapped nations are backed into a corner and compelled into agreeing to adhere to a very long list of IMF's so-called austerity measures and structural adjustment policies.

 

These are sometimes referred to as "SAPs," a quite befitting acronym since these policies literally "sap" the lifeblood out of the very economies they are alleging to help.

 

Disturbingly, the World Bank and IMF shrewdly neglect to inform their loan applicants that the same policies they are hawking have had a 40-year proven track record of abysmal failure and have contributed to an upward spiraling of Third World debt, poverty and exponential growth of inequalities of income and wealth around the world.

 

The typical M.O. (method of operation) of the IMF and World Bank consists of systematically weakening and ultimately destroying existing economies of debtor nations in order to pave the way for transnational corporations to come in and reap the stolen harvest of underpaid labor of a people made destitute and desperate for work.

 

First, under the dictates of the SAPs, any and all forms of social safety nets governments may have in place for their people must be eliminated.

 

Countries are forced to radically downsize government operations, to freeze or cut wages, to cut public pensions and unemployment benefits, to impose user fees for formerly free government-provided services such as health care, education, and clean drinking water, and to privatize all publicly owned, generally profitable enterprises, among which may be gas, oil, telephone, rail and electricity.

 

This restructuring, in effect, renders thousands of employees jobless and creates whole new, displaced underclasses that suddenly can no longer afford to pay for even the basics.

 

Next, the IMF tells these same countries that, in order to procure money to pay off their debt, they need to open up their borders to the global free trade market. Of course, "the only way" to accomplish this is to outlaw all forms of protectionism, like trade tariffs on imports and government subsidies of local industries, so as to successfully entice other nations to trade with them.

 

This is referred to as a "leveling of the playing field," clever Orwellian doublespeak for giving rich nations unrestricted access to a country's markets and cheap labor. Again, true to form, the IMF conveniently fails to mention to these fledgling countries that they will be competing against economic mammoths, such as the United States, whose crops and exports, contrary to the rules debtor nations are compelled to follow, are heavily subsidized by their governments.

 

Once trade barriers have been eliminated, foreign goods pour into the markets of these nations at cutthroat prices, putting formerly prosperous industries out of business. Small business owners and farmers using traditional, labor-intensive methods despairingly find themselves unable to compete against the megalomaniacal, highly mechanized, government-supported enterprises of the United States and other industrialized nations.

 

The tiny island of Jamaica has experienced first hand what it means to live under the dictatorial rules of the IMF. Whole swaths of once-cultivated, fertile farmlands now lie fallow due to the inability of local farmers to compete with the torrent of cheaper crops from California flooding their markets.

 

A once thriving, local dairy business finds its fresh milk is no match price wise for the heavily subsidized, powdered version shipped in from the United States with the result that it now teeters on the edge of bankruptcy and collapse.

 

A $40 million, World Bank supported investment that built a high-tech, state-of the-art Jamaican meat-processing plant to supply McDonald's franchises in Jamaica with burgers made from local cattle met with a wall of resistance from McDonald's. Even though many regard the Jamaican beef as superior in quality, from cows raised under humane, free-range conditions, fed grasses and pure unadulterated grain, and untainted by the many hormones and antibiotics typically pumped into U.S. American cattle, McDonald's refuses to do business with this plant. To this day, McDonald's continues to import all of its beef from the United States into Jamaica, proving once again that investment in local businesses takes a back seat to foreign interests and profit.

 

Adding insult to injury, once an economy has been severely compromised, transnational corporations come in under the guise of alleviating poverty and unemployment, and are granted the right to build and establish "free zone" manufacturing areas which are exempt from paying any local fees or taxes.

 

They then hire domestic workers, desperate for income, at sub-standard wages and pressure them, under sweatshop conditions, to assemble products that, when completed, are immediately exported back out to wealthy nations. Like the true leeches they are, these corporations even go so far as to ship in any and all materials needed to make their products, essentially guaranteeing that no local businesses benefit in any way.

 

In Haiti, workers for these transnational corporations earn barely enough to cover 60% of their costs of living, relegating them to a life of abject poverty, while the top CEOs of the very companies they work for rake in salaries to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

 

The Hanes/Sara Lee Corporation, Disney, Nike, Adidas, Reebok, JCPenney, Sears, and WalMart are just a few examples of U.S. companies that actually seek out Third World countries with high unemployment rates and weak environmental and labor laws in order to set up shop and maximize profits. Take into account that the IMF, the World Bank and countless, exploitive, transnational U.S. corporations are de facto representatives of the United States. Now multiply the aforementioned scenarios to the nth degree in countries around the globe.

 

Considering what is being perpetrated in our names, is it any wonder that the U.S. is so utterly resented and despised throughout the world?

 

Could therein lie a conceivably plausible and significant part of the answer to George W. Bush's question: "Why do they hate us so much?"

 

In light of these harsh realities, Bush's overly simplistic and ill-founded explanation that "they resent our freedom and democracy," merely serves to underscore the depth and extent of his ignorance and callous unwillingness to put two and two together.

 

A statistical overview of countries operating under the trusted tutelage of the IMF reveals a telling pattern of skyrocketing debt.

 

Jamaica, Haiti, Mexico, Ecuador, Kenya, Nigeria, Brazil, Colombia and countless other struggling nations around the world who have faithfully swallowed the prescriptions handed out by the IMF have witnessed the doubling and tripling of their initial debt load over the years.

 

Most, if not all, dole out more in interest payments (anywhere from 21 to 70 percent) to the IMF, World Bank, and foreign banks than they do to support and develop their own infrastructure and essential social services.

 

For the most horrifying and glaring example of the devastating effects of IMF intrusion, we need look no further than present-day Argentina, a country whose economy has completely imploded under the onerous and crippling weight of IMF rules and regulations.

 

Are these cases and others simply the casualties of a free trade system, as the IMF and World Bank would have us believe?

 

Is that which is good for the United States and developed nations really good for developing countries as well? If so, then why have double standards been put into place that, in effect, tie the hands of these nations to set their own import/export rules and run their internal affairs while allowing rich, developed countries to do as they please? The draconian measures being forcibly implemented by the IMF and World Bank in low and middle-income countries are based upon a capitalist model which provides no place for exercising social consciousness or serving the greater common good. Capitalism, as it is currently practiced, worships exclusively its one-and-only true god, the almighty dollar, and thus, its driving force is based upon its sole tenet, the expansion of profit margins and accumulation of greater wealth.

 

The ultimate success of such a system depends on a constant, reliable pool of bargain-basement workers in order to ensure maximum profit, hence, the ensuing global rat race to the bottom by companies in search of dirt-cheap labor and production costs.

 

For all practical purposes, the IMF and World Bank in collusion with rich, capitalist empires have created what amounts to the modern-day equivalence of slavery. These financial institutions, whose most powerful member with the greatest influence and largest voting block is the United States, are nothing but henchmen for the interests, priorities, and benefit of wealthy nations, corporations, and select individuals.

 

They serve to keep poor countries in a state of perpetual indebtedness so as to guarantee their benefactors a steady stream of income and an endless source of underpaid, or more precisely, "slave" labor.

 

Unfortunately, a pragmatic analysis of this situation recognizes that the coziness of this profitably exploitative arrangement precludes any real incentive by the lending parties to institute effective, meaningful, socially beneficial reforms to the IMF's and World Bank's presently skewed policies.

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Salam brothers,

 

Hi, brother Gill,

 

Trying to paint a rosy picture? Wishful thinking? Even if you have a big Texas ranch full of pink paint, you are probably going to run out of it … pretty soon. :D

 

“Many� nations with negative population growth? Not so many, and almost only in Europe. And the “negativity� in Europe in 1998 was only 0,05 %. Almost nothing.

 

Hi, sister Carla

 

You can read Malthus’ essay in overpopulation:

 

"overpopulation#####/faq/people/thomas_malthus/essay_on_population/"]overpopulation####

#/faq/people/t..._on_population/[/url]

 

So, do you really think the Chinese would be better now if they had continued the birth rate they had when tens of millions were starving during Mao’s time? There are no statistics, of course, because they did not want to make them. So nobody starved. The Chinese are crazy to have decided their one child policy for no reason. And to secure old age, it is enough with 3 or 4 children, not 10 or 12. What they are securing, rather than old age for the father, is starvation for the sons.

 

Hi, brother Al Furqaan,

 

Where did the 'West' get its riches from? Colonialization and leeching the blood of the East.

 

Sure, the East was very rich before colonization, and stopped being rich when Europe stopped being poor. No, my friends, it is not as easy as that transfer of riches from East to West, nor from America and africa to Europe. First of all, “Europe� was poor during the colonies. The population in Spain and England were poor during the empires, only the elites were rich. But let me give you an example of how accurate your statement is.

 

In the nineteenth century the French used to say “Africa starts in the Pyrenees� (The mountains between France and Spain), meaning Spain looked like Africa rather than like Europe. Where were all the riches Spain brought from the colonies? Philip the second spent most of it in religious wars against the protestants and trying to maintain his empire. Seems to us stupid now, but he did nothing different than all other rulers in history. The richest country in the world in the 16th century ended up bankrupt.

 

If there was anything left, it went away in constant dynastic civil wars during the 19th century and later wars with US and Morocco, and in our awful civil war 1936-1939. The last remnants of Spanish gold from America, the whole reserves of the Bank of Spain, were taken to Russia by the Spanish communists in 1939 to pay for their help in the war. Spain claimed it, and never got it.

 

Right after that I was born in the dry land of Don Quijote, La Mancha, between the rivers Guadalquivir and Guadiana. All Spanish children know “guad� means “river� in Arab. We have many Arab names and words in Spanish, (including Madrid) and also many beautiful monuments. Anyway, believe me, my home town had no running water, only a couple of public wells for the whole village. When I was 4 I went to Madrid and when I returned to the village I told my mother:

 

“Mama, if you want to have running water in the house, it is very easy, I know how they do it in Madrid. All you have to do is buy a water tap, you fix it on the wall, turn the tap, and water pours! I have seen it in Madrid !!!�.

 

It is no joke. It happened. It was just like in the Saharan countries. And I still remember the coupons my parents were given to buy a limited amount of bread every day still in the early fifties. That was Spanish "prosperity" from ing others.

 

In the rest of Europe the situation was not better after WWII. Ask the now rich old Dutch people how did potato skins taste. They know it very well. But you are partly right, the prosperity of Europe is partly due to a colony, to be accurate an ex-colony, the US, and their Marshal Plan credits to help reconstruct Europe and make it strong so it would not be easily swallowed up by the communists.

 

Now tell me. Where would all the prosperity of Europe be now if you distributed it among 3 or 4 times more population, as would have been the case if we had not drastically reduced birth rates. It would be 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 what it is now, that is, similar to the rest of the world.

 

European prosperity due to ing the East? At last someone brings humour here. It was a joke, wasn´t it? :D

 

Hi, brother Abufaray, (last but not least)

 

I did not mention Arabs or Muslims, I know the difference, and I said it clearly, overpopulation is underestimated in the whole planet, in the West, in the East, South america, Africa, Arabs and Muslims.

 

Allah is the Provider and He will never let any people suffer unless it is as a punishment or a trial.

 

Understood. Nobody is suffering. Those who starve are being punished, including children. Are you sure you do not believe in karma? :D

 

Try and see the comparison of area cultivated and output of any underdeveloped country and a developed country and you will know. The underdeveloped are from every religion.

 

I know not only Muslims are underdeveloped and some Muslim countries are rich. I propose you another comparison of agriculture.

 

1 hectare of land can feed 1 person if you grow cattle, 5 persons if you grow corn, 12 people if you grow wheat and 30 people if you grow soy beans. So do you want to increase food production and reduce starvation? Become vegetarian as yogis say. There are already one million vegetarians in Netherlands. Are you crazy? Give up sense pleasures and the nice taste of grilled meat just to save people from starvation?

 

I have been down with severe attack of flu, and hence have not been spending time on the Forum.

 

My best wishes for your recovery. My ideas are light years away from yours. My heart cannot be closer. :D

 

Have a nice day, brothers.

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Peace Asking!

 

I did not mention Arabs or Muslims, I know the difference, and I said it clearly, overpopulation is underestimated in the whole planet, in the West, in the East, South america, Africa, Arabs and Muslims.

Sorry, but your first statement

But in the Muslim world I do not even know if Malthus is known. Has Malthus been translated into Arab?

 

What do Muslims know and think about Malthus?

is what I went by when you asked a question about Muslims and then asked whether Malthus had been translated into Arabic. Then you later brought in the whole world by stating

1.2 billion people worldwide are living on $1.00 a day or less.

Allah will provide.

These 1.2 million do not believe that Allah :D is the Providor, only Muslims do.

 

If I am wrong in concluding what you implied, my apologies.

 

Understood. Nobody is suffering. Those who starve are being punished, including children. Are you sure you do not believe in karma? biggrin.gif

I did not say punishment. I said punishment or trial. You picked and chose to try to put more weight to your argument. Do you know what punishment in this world does for a sinner? It relieves him/her from punishment in the Hereafter. Do you know what punishment in the Hereafter is like? I pray that I am punished in this world for all my sins.

 

No I do not believe in karma. I am a Muslim - we believe that there is only one life, and there is no such thing as a bad karma for anybody. Each individual action is recorded for evaluation on the Day of Judgement.

 

I know not only Muslims are underdeveloped and some Muslim countries are rich. I propose you another comparison of agriculture.

That is precisely the point that I have been trying to drive across from the moment I started responding to your insinuation that Muslim countries are ignorant of the Malthusian theory. The fact is that India has the world's poorest people. People who do not have a place they can call home. And, despite discrimination against Muslims, majority of these are not Muslims. They are the shudras. You know what shudras are? If not, find out and that will be an eye-opener for you.

 

Are you crazy? Give up sense pleasures and the nice taste of grilled meat just to save people from starvation?

I sincerely believe I did not convey the full meaning of my statement when I asked you to compare the production for an area of cultivation. What I wanted was a comparison of production of similar product in different countries. If there is real concern in the minds of the people at the helm of affairs, they will encourage ways to improve production, and not impose contraception.

 

Thank you very much for your wishes. The purpose of this forum is to bring ideas on the same wave length. What separates us is our beliefs, not education and experince in life. I am sure you will appreciate that knowledge and exposure is no different.

 

Peace out.

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Trying to paint a rosy picture? Wishful thinking? Even if you have a big Texas ranch full of pink paint, you are probably going to run out of it  … pretty soon. :D

 

“Many� nations with negative population growth? Not so many, and almost only in Europe. And the “negativity� in Europe in 1998 was only 0,05 %. Almost nothing.

No rosey picture here. It is difficult enough to see the world as it really is :D

 

Negative population growth can cause all kinds of hardship in terms of supporting an aging population and the social changes required to move from having one child to two or perhaps three.

 

Many or not many, when enough countries cannot replace their own citizens causing a whole continent to go negative, you could consider that a significant event.

 

I don't understand "pink paint" or how Texas ranches relate to overpopulation.

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Peace Asking!

 

Details of the 400 million will show that the majority are not Muslims. And, if they are, it is because of bad governance for which the west is responsible for having propped up incompetent rulers who would toe their line.

 

Peace out.

Why does it matter if they are muslims or non muslims, the point is they died and there a many who are dying. From your statment, non-muslims starve thats their problem, muslims starve it's the west.

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Hi, brother Al Furqaan,

Sure, the East was very rich before colonization, and stopped being rich when Europe stopped being poor. No, my friends, it is not as easy as that transfer of riches from East to West, nor from America and africa to Europe. First of all, “Europe� was poor during the colonies. The population in Spain and England were poor during the empires, only the elites were rich. But let me give you an example of how accurate your statement is.

 

In the nineteenth century the French used to say “Africa starts in the Pyrenees� (The mountains between France and Spain), meaning Spain looked like Africa rather than like Europe. Where were all the riches Spain brought from the colonies? Philip the second spent most of it in religious wars against the protestants and trying to maintain his empire. Seems to us stupid now, but he did nothing different than all other rulers in history. The richest country in the world in the 16th century ended up bankrupt.

 

If there was anything left, it went away in constant dynastic civil wars during the 19th century and later wars with US and Morocco, and in our awful civil war 1936-1939. The last remnants of Spanish gold from America, the whole reserves of the Bank of Spain, were taken to Russia by the Spanish communists in 1939 to pay for their help in the war. Spain claimed it, and never got it.

 

Right after that I was born in the dry land of Don Quijote, La Mancha, between the rivers Guadalquivir and Guadiana. All Spanish children know “guad� means “river� in Arab. We have many Arab names and words in Spanish, (including Madrid) and also many beautiful monuments. Anyway, believe me, my home town had no running water, only a couple of public wells for the whole village. When I was 4 I went to Madrid and when I returned to the village I told my mother:

 

“Mama, if you want to have running water in the house, it is very easy, I know how they do it in Madrid. All you have to do is buy a water tap, you fix it on the wall, turn the tap, and water pours! I have seen it in Madrid !!!�.

 

It is no joke. It happened. It was just like in the Saharan countries. And I still remember the coupons my parents were given to buy a limited amount of bread every day still in the early fifties. That was Spanish "prosperity" from ing others.

 

In the rest of Europe the situation was not better after WWII. Ask the now rich old Dutch people how did potato skins taste. They know it very well. But you are partly right, the prosperity of Europe is partly due to a colony, to be accurate an ex-colony, the US, and their Marshal Plan credits to help reconstruct Europe and make it strong so it would not be easily swallowed up by the communists.

 

Now tell me. Where would all the prosperity of Europe be now if you distributed it among 3 or 4 times more population, as would have been the case if we had not drastically reduced birth rates. It would be 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 what it is now, that is, similar to the rest of the world.

 

European prosperity due to ing the East? At last someone brings humour here. It was a joke, wasn´t it?  :D

 

a joke you forgot to read this. How the West is still leeching the third world countries.

 

For all practical purposes, the IMF and World Bank in collusion with rich, capitalist empires have created what amounts to the modern-day equivalence of slavery. These financial institutions, whose most powerful member with the greatest influence and largest voting block is the United States, are nothing but henchmen for the interests, priorities, and benefit of wealthy nations, corporations, and select individuals.

 

They serve to keep poor countries in a state of perpetual indebtedness so as to guarantee their benefactors a steady stream of income and an endless source of underpaid, or more precisely, "slave" labor.

 

so you better start concerning yourself about this too

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Why does it matter if they are muslims or non muslims, the point is they died and there a many who are dying.  From your statment, non-muslims starve thats their problem, muslims starve it's the west.

 

Peace curiousbud!

 

If you see the first post from Asking, and a post in another thread by Asking or one of the other non-Muslim members, the implied meaning that I took was that he it is the Muslim countries that do not understand the Malthesian theory and are busy increasing their population.

 

That is why I am trying to differentiate between Muslims and non-Muslims.

 

From your statment, non-muslims starve thats their problem, muslims starve it's the west.

is your misunderstanding. The fault for both lies in the same place.

 

Peace out.

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Peace brothers,

 

Sorry Abufaray, you misunderstood me. I am in a Muslim Forum and that is why I ask Muslims for their opinion about overpopulation. I already know what most Europeans think and what other cultures think.

 

I said already from the beginnning, overpopulation is understimated in the whole world, perhaps except Europe and China, not only in Muslim countries, not only in Arab countries.

 

Peace

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Assalaamalaikum,

 

Islam does not believe in controlling the population or birth control or any of it. Such practices are strongly discouraged in Islam. According to Islam, birth of a child is a natural process which should not be tampered with. Every child has a right to be born and spend his life on this earth for an alotted time.

 

As regards poverty, then let it be known the Prophet Muhammad may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, lead an austere life, where even the basic necessities of life were hardly available. Yet, he was the leader of his people, yet he was an uncrowned King of Arabia. His companions followed him down to the last details. They lead such austere lives that the Second Caliph Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) had only two pair of clothes at a time when the Empires of Persia and Byzantine were defeated by his armies.

 

Poverty, economic status, quality of life, comforts, etc nothing mattered. What matters in Islam is how well we prepare in the short time on this Earth for the hereafter. That is where status counts, where the real comforts lie. What is 60-80 odd years compared to eternity?

 

They left an example for us to follow. On the practical side we see how their example symbolises the sacrifice each and every human is to make for a fellow human and consequently helps making a better world. We may never come to their standard, but we can at least try to do our best.

 

Today, your fears hold true ONLY BECAUSE THE WEST DEVOURS 2/3RDS OF THE WORLD RESOURCES. If the West embraces Islam, it will rid itself of this insatiable thirst, this greed for more comfort, for more luxury, for more of everything. More and more and more and more, until nothing is left. That is how colonizations started and that is why today wars are being fought in the name of freedom, but in actuality for resources. If the West embraces Islam, perhaps then it will realize that there is enough on this earth for all of us if we share and let others have their due rights. And perhaps then, they will begin to experience God's gift of children, and the prefer them to the luxury cars, houses and sumptious meals.

 

You want to know the Islamic Perspective? Life on this Earth is for a shortwhile, it goes on to the hereafter and lives for eternity. It is there that we are promised unlimited comforts and luxuries. As the Prophet may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said, that a Muslim must lead his life on this Earth like a traveller stopping to rest on his way. He doesn't bundle himself with all the goods, because he knows he will have to leave soon and he can't carry anything but the bare necessities with him.

 

For those who reflect.

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Assalaamalaikum,

 

Islam does not believe in controlling the population or birth control or any of it. Such practices are strongly discouraged in Islam. According to Islam, birth of a child is a natural process which should not be tampered with. Every child has a right to be born and spend his life on this earth for an alotted time.

 

As regards poverty, then let it be known the Prophet Muhammad may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, lead an austere life, where even the basic necessities of life were hardly available. Yet, he was the leader of his people, yet he was an uncrowned King of Arabia. His companions followed him down to the last details. They lead such austere lives that the Second Caliph Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) had only two pair of clothes at a time when the Empires of Persia and Byzantine were defeated by his armies.

 

Poverty, economic status, quality of life, comforts, etc nothing mattered. What matters in Islam is how well we prepare in the short time on this Earth for the hereafter. That is where status counts, where the real comforts lie. What is 60-80 odd years compared to eternity?

 

They left an example for us to follow. On the practical side we see how their example symbolises the sacrifice each and every human is to make for a fellow human and consequently helps making a better world. We may never come to their standard, but we can at least try to do our best.

 

Today, your fears hold true ONLY BECAUSE THE WEST DEVOURS 2/3RDS OF THE WORLD RESOURCES. If the West embraces Islam, it will rid itself of this insatiable thirst, this greed for more comfort, for more luxury, for more of everything. More and more and more and more, until nothing is left. That is how colonizations started and that is why today wars are being fought in the name of freedom, but in actuality for resources. If the West embraces Islam, perhaps then it will realize that there is enough on this earth for all of us if we share and let others have their due rights. And perhaps then, they will begin to experience God's gift of children, and the prefer them to the luxury cars, houses and sumptious meals.

 

You want to know the Islamic Perspective? Life on this Earth is for a shortwhile, it goes on to the hereafter and lives for eternity. It is there that we are promised unlimited comforts and luxuries. As the Prophet may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said, that a Muslim must lead his life on this Earth like a traveller stopping to rest on his way. He doesn't bundle himself with all the goods, because he knows he will have to leave soon and he can't carry anything but the bare necessities with him.

 

For those who reflect.

Everyone becomes a muslim, lives like mohammed and we are all happy? Sounds good to me. This would mean to get rid of every technological advancement made, because there is no need for the IF or the internet, cars etc... they didn't have it back then.

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"Everyone becomes a muslim, lives like mohammed and we are all happy? Sounds good to me. This would mean to get rid of every technological advancement made, because there is no need for the IF or the internet, cars etc... they didn't have it back then."

 

Are u seriously advocating a return to the middle/dark ages???

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Salam brothers,

 

Hallo, Aburafay, how are you? I hope with strong body and spirit again after the flue?

 

Details of the 400 million will show that the majority are not Muslims. And, if they are, it is because of bad governance for which the west is responsible for having propped up incompetent rulers who would toe their line.

 

Understood. The West is responsible for both, East and West. I have finally found the modern version of my favourite Arab saying or Haddith:

 

Trust in Allah, but tie the camel, otherwise you will end up with no camel and blaming the West.

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Salam brothers

 

Islam does not believe in controlling the population or birth control or any of it. Such practices are strongly discouraged in Islam.

 

The Quran was written when anticonceptives did not exist. Saying they are not in the Quran does not mean they are forbidden in the Quran, they are neither forbidden not allowed, simply not mentioned, just like electricity, cloning, flying airplanes or travelling to the moon. I cannot see how these things may be forbidden in the Quran.

 

Can you tell me a specific sentence of the Quran saying it is forbidden for Muslims to use contraceptives?

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Guest Sulemaan
Everyone becomes a muslim, lives like mohammed and we are all happy?  Sounds good to me.  This would mean to get rid of every technological advancement made, because there is no need for the IF or the internet, cars etc... they didn't have it back then.

 

Hey Bud!

 

I am talking about EXCESS friend! The prophet said NEEDS and if technology is a needs, then why not? The problem is when we exceed those needs and purely use things for the sake of using them! Internet, mobile phones, airplanes, etc are all needs these days. However, First CLass tickets, a $2000 dollar cell phone are not needs! This is where the difference lies. This is what I mean by luxuries. Please do not misinterpret my posts.

 

Regards

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