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Wardatul Islam

The Nicea Council

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:D

 

I am sorry, I don't know if this is the right place at the forum to ask this question, but I didn't know where else to post it... :D

 

I am very interested in the Nicea Council (where they "voted" on whether Isa (as) was to be considered divine or not), how Paul influenced Christianty, and how the concept of Trinity was introduced to Christianity. However, I am having a difficult time finding good and reliable sources for my personal study (I am just studying this out of personal interest, as I find it very intriguing..I used to be a Christian..)..Do any in here know of any good sources? Books, links, documentaries?

 

All help is appreciated...

 

Once again..sorry if I posted this message in the wrong place in the IF forum..

 

Ma'a salaama

Sis Iman

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PropellerAds

Here's a good place to start:

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_ccg(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/s/p268.html"]Unitarian/Trinitarian Wars[/url]

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Assalamo Alaikom:

 

Dr. Jamal Badawi has an extensive series of talks on this topic and other related issues, including references to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in the Bible.

 

You will find these talks on the Islam On-line web site under the section "Discover Islam" - "Islamic Teachings" (Menu to the left of the page)

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/index.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/index.shtml[/url]

 

If you search for "Nicaea" or "Council", you will get a list of topics which you could either listen to on-line or save to you computer.

 

Wassalamo Alaikom.

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:D

 

 

I am very interested in the Nicea Council (where they "voted" on whether Isa (as) was to be considered divine or not),

 

Ma'a salaama

Sis Iman

May I suggest you find a copy of the Chaosium game "Credo". This takes a somewhat irreverant view of the council of Nicea, but the historical research and background literature included in the game is beyond reproach, and the best single summarised source on the subject I know of.

 

Details "you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.thewargamer(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/brog/credo.htm"]here[/url]

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:D

 

Here is an excerpt from the Unitarian/Trinitarian article:

 

Faced with the dilemma of being an official state religion and continuing the exercise of civil and military power, contrary to the instruction of Christ, doctrine had to be promulgated and the first comprehensive biblical analysis we have of the use of military force occurred in the writings of Augustine, a North African thinker, who was baptised a Christian and was educated in Punic, a variant of Hebrew, as well as Latin. From 373-383 CE he was a Manichean and Platonist philosopher, having a concubine who bore him a son in 372 CE. He was rebaptised in 387 an Athanasian. Ambrose of Milan, with Theodosius, had gained control of the Roman Church for the Athanasian faction (381 CE) and his involvement with Augustine was instrumental in the latter's adoption of that creed, which at the time was, to him, a prudent course.

 

 

The Athanasian/Arian disputes led to bitter persecution by both the Athanasians and much later the Arians. The Goths and Vandals were so-called "Arians" (the Gothic Bible dates from 351). The disputes were to arise even later when the Empress Placidia sent the Goths, aided by the Vandals, to oppose the revolt of Count Boniface in Africa in 427. They were accompanied by Maximinius, a Unitarian (termed Arian) Bishop. Augustine had to publicly defend the Athanasian sect in 428.

 

 

At about 330 CE Constantine granted the East German sub-tribe of the Vandals (or Silingi) lands in Pannonia on the right bank of the Danube. In 166-181 they had lived in Silesia and had fought Aurilian in 271, being contained at the middle course of the Danube. The so-called Germanic tribes included the Vandals, Alans, Sarmations, Suevians and Alamanni in the East and the Franks (or French), the Burgundians who may in fact have not been Germans) and Lombards or Longobards in the West. Parsons, Remnant of Japeth (1767) quotes Procopius as stating that the Alans were Goths as were the Sauromatae and Melancleni and that the Vandals have a commonality of origin with the Ostrogoths (p.73).

 

 

The Lombards more closely resembled the Anglo Saxons in dress and manner than the Germans and seem to be related to the Anglo–Saxons as a sub-tribe. They occupied from Austria to Central Italy and merged with the Celtic tribes and the Ostrogoths, who also occupied what is now Croatia and neighbouring regions. The Burgundians (443 CE) were to finally end as the Western Cantons of Switzerland, settling on both sides of the Jura, lake Geneva, in the Valais, and on the banks of the Rhone and the Saone (Historians History Vol. XVI pp.534 ff.). The larger part incorporated into modern France and some in Northern Italy. The first Burgundian Empire ended in 534 CE prompted in large part by family feuds and vices of its princes (ibid., p. 535). The Ostrogothic Empire ended about the same time after the losses of five successive kings in both war and lands. Dietbert King of the Franks took advantage of their weakness, recovering Rhaetia in 536 CE and from then controlled all of Rhaetia and Helvetia, the area termed Switzerland (ibid.).

 

 

The Alemanni had settled Northern Switzerland, Alsatia and Baden-Wurtemburg and superimposed themselves on the indigenous Gallo-Celtic people, who had come from the same area around the Black Sea up the Danube. The Franks, who had subjected the Alemanni, did likewise to the Cimbri, Gauls and Celts in what is now Northern France. The Lombards had succeeded the Ostrogoths to dominion in Italy, but being small in number after establishing the northern kingdom, whose capital was Pavia and the southern Duchy of Benevento, were defeated by the Franks in 774. The southern Duchy maintained its independence for some two centuries longer. (ibid., vol. IX p. 18 ). The Saxons were separated from Scandinavia and forced into German union by Charlemagne (768-814) as were the Frisians. It is worth noting that whilst Helvetia was a dominion of the Catholic Franks, under Clotaire II and his son Dagobert who succeeded him in 628, it was general for the Bishops to live in wedlock like the clergy and the laity who elected them and were afterwards confirmed by the king (ibid., p. 535). Thus even as late as this period monasticism and celibacy was rejected by large areas of Christian Europe.

 

 

The Emperor Valens (364-378) was instrumental in the conversion of the Vandals to Unitarian (termed Arian) Christianity. Whilst accepting Christianity they did not become pacified, because the new edicts of Constantine had enshrined the religion as a military power. The Goths had become Christian long before that, seemingly from Christians within the tribe and from runaways.

 

 

The Sabbath-keeping Unitarian Church was to continue among the tribes and people of France, Northern Italy and Europe generally for a series of reasons. The first reason was that after the Council of Nicea in 325 CE the Emperor Constantine favoured the Athanasians, who later became the Roman Catholic Church from 381 CE. He had ordered the conference of the Desposyni, who came to Rome in 318 CE, to converse with the bishop of Rome. These blood relatives of Christ demanded the reintroduction of the Law, which included the Sabbath and the Holy day system of Feasts and New Moons of the Bible. They wanted Jerusalem as the centre of the tithe. The bishop, or pope, (all bishops of major sees were called pope initially when the term was introduced from the cults) then, with Roman contrivance, ordered that they be exterminated and this campaign of extermination was undertaken against Christ’s immediate family from 318 onwards (cf. the paper The Virgin Mariam and the Family of Jesus Christ (No. 232)).

 

 

The Unitarian faction however, with Eusebius as its spokesman, was placed back in favour two years or so after the Council of Nicea, ca. 327. The doctrine came to be referred to as Arianism, but Arius was only a presbyter and was not even at the Council of Nicea. However, he was summoned often as its logician. The doctrines attributed to so-called Arianism, namely of the creation of the Holy Spirit by Christ, are not substantiated from any writings of Arius or of the faction (cf. the paper Socinianism, Arianism and Unitarianism (No. 185)).

 

 

The emperor Constantine was baptised a Unitarian by Eusebius on his death-bed. He had reunited the empire under himself, as sole emperor and moved the seat of the empire to Constantinople in 331. He died in 337. His three sons Constantine II, Constantius II and Constans, disputed the succession and Constantine II was killed in the battle of Aquileia, fighting his brother Constans, in 340. The empire then split again into two halves, with Constans as Western and Constantius as Eastern Emperor from 340.

 

 

In 360 the Huns invaded Europe, invading the area of what is now Russia in 376. In 361 Julian the apostate tried to revive heathen doctrines or so-called paganism, in the Roman Empire but failed.

 

 

The Huns were of the later Scythian Horde. They ravaged Asia Minor after the death of Theodosius in 395, at the same time as the Visigoths under Alaric had risen in Moesia and Thrace. Alaric became Governor of Eastern Illyricum in 398 (see H.H., Vol. VII, p. 6). By the 9th century, the Huns had entered Europe by way of the Danube whilst the Slavs pressed in on the north (ibid., p. xvii). Some of these people integrated with the Germanii Persians in Europe as an aggregation of the greater Aryan race, and together with the Goths, another 'Aryan' tribe (perhaps derived from an amalgum including the biblical the Guti), contained most of the European tribes of Mesopotamian derivation.

 

 

The Scythian horde was not one nation, but rather contained elements of various tribes. The composition of the Scythian nations is a separate subject. Etzal (or Attila) consolidated these warring nations at the beginning of the 5th century and occupied the left bank of the Danube and ultimately all Northern Europe. The Huns, however, left Europe in the fifth century only to re-settle in Eastern Europe at the beginning of the ninth century, to be joined by other more eastern tribes.

 

 

In 364 the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, from the Danube to the Persian border, was under the Emperor Valens, who was a Unitarian. At this time the so-called Catholic or Universal and Orthodox Church, was predominantly Unitarian, except for the paganised faction in Rome and the paganised elements of the Hellenised system worshipping Attis in the west and Adonis in the east under the name of Jesus Christ (cf. the paper The Origins of Christmas and Easter (No. 235)). The Western half from Caledonia to north-western Africa was under Valentinian I. Valens had allegedly been converting the northern tribes to Unitarianism (so-called Arianism), but in 378 he was defeated and killed by the Visigoths at Adrianople in Thrace. He was succeeded as emperor by the Spanish born Theodosius, who was the first Athanasian or Binitarian and later Trinitarian emperor, to sit on the throne being appointed by Gratian. He had driven the Picts and Scots out of Britain in 370, but by 383 the Roman legions began to evacuate Britain. Under the emperor Magnus Maximus the army crossed the channel and conquered Gaul and Spain.

 

 

There was no Trinitarian emperor on the throne until 381, when the Trinity was formulated at Constantinople under protection of Theodosius. They had all been Unitarians until 381 with the exception of Julian the apostate.

 

 

This Unitarian creed is based on the theology expressed in Psalm 45:6-7 and Hebrews 1:8-9. The early apologists such as Irenaeus at Lyons held it in the second century. This theology was held by the Goths, Vandals, Alans, Suevi, Heruli, Britons, Lombards, Germans, and all the northern tribes (see also the paper The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ (No. 243) for the creed of the Goths). It came from the teachings of theologians and disciples of the apostles that were already centuries old before the Council of Nicea in 325 CE, where many of these bishops were present. The heresy of Binitarianism was commenced from this Council.

 

 

In 381 the Trinity was declared at Constantinople from the theology of the Cappadocians Basil, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzus. The destruction of the faith by the Greeks and Romans had begun to take effect. Trinitarians incorrectly and dishonestly label the creed as Arianism, to give the impression that their doctrine is older and this doctrine originated with Arius in the fourth century. The Trinitarians then alternately label the subordinationist Unitarian doctrine after Arius (Arianism) and then Eusebius of Nicomedia (Eusebianism) and other bishops much senior to Arius (who was not even present at Nicea, only being summoned there for advice on logic). Trinitarians accuse Arians of holding that the Spirit was a creation of the son, when in fact that is the doctrine of Filioque advanced from the Council of Toledo, by the Catholics themselves in the sixth century. Even the Greeks rejected that view. People who label this view as Arian, are either being deliberately dishonest, or do not understand enough to know what they are saying.

 

 

Theodosius the Great (392-395) reunited the empire, but it was divided again by his successors Honorius and Arcadius in 395.

 

 

In 382 Theodosius I had resettled the Visigoths in the empire but they were still Unitarian. Allegedly it was the emperors, especially Valens, who converted the northern tribes to Unitarianism and not to Trinitarianism. The Goths, Vandals Alans, Suevi, Heruli, were all Unitarian as were the tribes of the Teutons and there were a number of bishops from the Unitarian tribes at Nicea. The German Hermunduri remained Unitarian until the eighth century."

 

Interesting, I never knew that there were so many Unitarians back then, Allahuakbar. That they still observed the Sabbath is also very interesting. The actual word "trinity" does not appear once in the Bible. I wonder if the early Unitarians believed that Isa (peace be upon him) was the son of God or just a prophet.

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Hello, all!

 

After Trinitarianism took hold in the west, many of the Unitarians fled for their very lives, as their Unitarian beliefs were regarded as "heretical." They took seriously Jesus' statement, "Think not I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: not to destroy but to fulfil (complete, elevate the law to a higher plane). For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This includes keeping the Feast Days of Leviticus 23, the seventh-day Sabbath, and the New Moons. Pagan holidays such as Christmas, Easter, New Year's, etc. were strictly avoided according to God's command to "Learn not the way of the heathen," in Jeremiah, chapter 10.

 

These true, commandment-keeping Christians were and still are in the small minority of Christendom today, probably making up less than 1% of 1% of the total. The particular group (The Christian Churches of God) that published the Unitarian/Trinitarian Wars paper actually accept Mohammad as a prophet, and the Quran as a book in agreement with the Bible.

 

These Unitarian Christians did and do believe that Jesus is the "Son of God," but not in the sense that most professing-Christians believe.

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As-salaamu alaikum,

 

And jazakAllahu khairan for all the help.

Does anyone know of any good books on this topic?

Also, when posting something, could you please state the source where you got the information from?

 

:biggrin: Thank you!

 

Ma'a salaama,

Sis Iman

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The particular group (The Christian Churches of God) that published the Unitarian/Trinitarian Wars paper actually accept Mohammad as a prophet, and the Quran as a book in agreement with the Bible.

 

As-salaamu alaikum,

 

Very interesting...where did you obtain this information from?

 

Ma'a salaama,

Sis Iman

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This particular Church has the following website:

 

EDITED

 

They are based in Australia and have congregations around the world (though their numbers are few). They have a massive library of articles and papers that is heavy into religious history, including a few on Islam (though it might disagree with some Islamic doctrine). Nevertheless, I find it an excellent resource with which to learn about the true message of the Bible. Reading the papers on Islam led me to research Islam itself, and so I found my way here.

 

I would suggest that anybody who is interested in the history of the Church of God read the articles on this website, as much of the tedious research has already be done and condensed for the reader.

Edited by Sulemaan

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Guest Sulemaan

Hello,

 

With all due respects and regards, the website you referred here basically promotes its own organization. The information on Islam is heavily colored. Although they claim to believe that Prophet Muhammad (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is a descendent of Abraham (peace be upon him), it refers to the Quran as a book written by the Prophet (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Moreover, they took to liberty to interpret the Quran by themselves (without any historical basis) and twisting the meaning to suit their belief system. These strange interpretations are diametrically opposite to the Islamic beliefs.

 

Understand my friend, just because a people agree with a part of our religion does not make them one of us or trustworthy. When the pagans of Makkah tried to stop the Prophet Muhammad (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) from preaching Islam to the people, they offered him to incorporate his teachings with their beliefs. It was at this time when God revealed to the Prophet (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) -

 

Say: O disbelievers!

I worship not that which ye worship

Nor worship ye which I worship

And I shall not worship that which ye worship

Nor will ye worship that which I worship

Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion

Holy Quran, Chapter 109

 

Thus, any compromise in matters of religion was rejected with strong words. It simply means that those who accept only a part of the religion or mix their beliefs with Islam are not welcomed in Islam, because Islam claims to be the Truth and Truth cannot be compromised.

 

Sorry for this off-topic remark, I felt it was necessary to explain my actions. You may continue with your discussion.

 

Regards

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As-salaamu alaikum,

JazakAllahu khairan for the clarification brother.

 

Anyone else who knows of any good books/research?

 

Ma'a salaama,

Sis Iman

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Here are some other resources on the Trinity that might be helpful:

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_philologos(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/__eb-ttb/sect21.htm"]Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons[/url]

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.outreachjudaism(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/nameofgod.html"]Did Somebody Find the Trinity in the Name of God?[/url]

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.heraldmag(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/olb/contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm"]The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine[/url]

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.religious-studies.info/Trinity_doctrine.htm"]The Origins of the Trinity Doctrine[/url]

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.biblicalunitarian(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23"]The Trinity: What is it and Where Did it Come From?[/url]

 

None of these are TOO long. Alexander Hislop's book is also good for researching various other facets of hijacked Christianity.

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Assalaamu Alaikum,

 

There is an excellent set of free books concerning this topic at:

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_sabeelillaah.co.uk/index.php?showforum=73"]Before Nicea[/url]

 

Hope that helps inshallaah!

 

Was-Salaamu Alaikum,

 

Abu Suhaylah.

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