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Bring Your Myths About The West

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Peace, :smile:

 

I disagree that the 'west' (If such a place can be said to exist) has declining morals. I'd call it changing morals.

 

Sure there is are relatively high teenage pregnancy rates, very high divorce rates, smut on television and binge drinking etc.

 

But British law is based primarily on consent. I don't like quoting dead white men in general, but for me this sums up western morality.

 

"The only purpose for which power can be rightly exercised over any member of a civilized community against his will, is to prevent harm to others." John Stuart Mill

 

If teenagers above the age of consent want to have sex then let them. It's the Government's job to give them sex education, teach them about contraception, tell them the risks involved, but it is not the Governments job to tell people how to live their life. The same goes for divorce, drinking alcohol etc.

 

There is also the freedom to follow whatever religion you want, in the UK there is free healthcare for all, free education to secondary level (to university level where I am in Scotland), a pretty fair legal system, a welfare state to help those out of work and incapable of working etc.

 

The west isn't immoral because of a lack of religion, there are just different views of morality. I find it reprehensible that some countries utilise the death penalty, but in the case of Muslim countries I wouldn't dream of calling it 'immoral' because the people in those countries believe that it's Gods will.

 

Anyway enough intullectual cack, I want to defend leering at women. :tongue:

 

The trick is not to stare, it's all about the quick catch of the eye, shy smile, then really obviously pretending to look elsewhere. If any of you guys know a better way to make a single womans day than that I'll eat my hat. :D

 

P.S. We don't chat up Muslim women because since birth we've been bombarded by the message that it's bad form to do so. :D

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PropellerAds
alot of other nation may say they hate the west but actuly wannabe westerners,  :laugh:

people like this false idea of "freedom" freedom to have no moral value to stop oneself from commiting evil acts. the biggest pornography producers are the west, so i wonder who caused these people to leeer at women and smoke etc. its the western lifstyle! 

 

cos they cant chat her up

 

 

Peace.

 

The west doesn't make those people behave like that. Those people chose to behave like that.

 

The western ideal of freedom is not freedom to behave immorally. It's more about freedom to not be forced to behave immorally by others whose morals are different from your own.

 

It is true that the biggest producers of pornography are in the west. This does not mean that everybody looks at it, or that everybody likes that it is made. I don't know how many people look at it, but you don't have to have that huge a segment of the population buying it to still make a big industry. A great many people hate pornography and want to ban it, and a great many more people hate pornography but think censorship is the wrong solution. People in these two camps far outnumber people who enjoy pornography.

 

Western men don't talk to Muslim women because they think that Muslim women are not permitted to talk to men outside their own families. It's not about being unable to chat her up. It's about not wanting to offend her or make her uncomfortable.

Edited by Kale

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Guest Sulemaan

Assalaamalaikum,

salams

 

i'd just like to clarify a bit of what kale said, which i agreed with, regarding egypt, having been there, i agree with you, cairo was worse than Alexandria which is more low key, but men stare until they make you feel naked even when youre with male relatives, and my sister inlaw informs me its worse in my home country ph34r.gif which is reassuring. muslim countries arent greatly better than non muslim ones in their current state, everything is slowly becoming less taboo and considered 'ok' to do or want, and a part of it is this desire to be more 'western', but why not pick some good parts instead of the bad, like human rights etc?

 

and brotherslave, as much as that made me laugh, i sincerely hope thats not the reason smile.gif

 

It may be right what you have said here or what Kale had said, but in this thread, we are talking about the West and people were invited to share their views on the West, therefore I feel Kale had no right to object to such criticism. If you and Kale would like to discuss Cairo's urinated walls, then you are welcom to start another thread. :D

 

Anyway, here are a few things which I as an Easterner believe about the West. These are not just bad points but good and bad and you (Westerners) have to point out which is true and which is not.

 

Good Points:

1. In general, people are honest, they are committed to their work and deal in business with honesty and integrity. (I am not talking about Corporates).

2. People in general are kind and polite

3. The police and other law enforcement officers are honest and helping

4. People value life

5. There is freedom to practice and preach your religion

6. A significant number of people (particularly in the US) are still family oriented, religious and have a healthy social environment (away from money, sex and drugs).

7. A significant number of people understand the ongoing injustice perpetrated by the US government on the people of other nations and are very unhappy about it.

8. A number of people also see right through the US media and recognize the devilish part israel plays in American foreign policy.

9. A majority of the people oppose the US/British foreign policy and israeli actions in the middle-east.

 

Bad Points:

1. The primary objective of life is to live to the fullest. Enjoy as much as you can. For this money is more important than anything else.

2. In general, the familial ties are not important. For example, friends are closer than brothers.

3. Being famous is the second best things to being rich. People dream and wish to be famous.

4. Looks matter A LOT!!! This forces girls as young as 12 to try to look good and dress to attract the opposite sex. This also has terrible consequences for those girls who are not forunate to have "good looks".

5. The criterea of respect among teenagers is not educational standing, but fame or looks. Those who have highly educated minds are called "nerds", which only helps in driving people away from educational excellence.

6. Sex among teenagers is common and acceptable. Alcohol is not permitted yet it is quite common

7. Parents are basically an embarassment for adolescent children

8. Old people are not a part of the family and usually live alone or in old-age homes, bereft of loving care.

9. Divorce rates are quite high and single parents are common

10. Corporates devour people's hard earned money by forcing them into buyings their products. In the process they deal in every unethical business practice imagineable.

11. A number of police and law enforcement officers are racist and higher officials are often on the payroll of druglords and other crime masters.

12. People value life only when it is in the West; they are apathetic to the life that is destroyed by their armies in other parts of the world. Or rather, they are too busy to worry about it.

13. There is so much freedom that people even have the right to worship Satan. So much freedom that enables one man to trample upon another's freedom, ultimately leading to the law of the jungle were the strong sit on top of the food-chain.

14. Sex outside marriage is a social norm; there is absolutely nothing wrong in it

15. Infidelity is a common occurance and in some cases a mutual agreement between married couples.

10. Prostitution is legal in certain cities

11. Pornography is legal and one of the biggest industries

11. Sex, drugs and violence are constantly promoted by the mainstream media.

12. People are too busy in earning money and spending that hard-earned money on entertaining themselves.

13. Religion is on a decline. People find more solace in literature or hollywood movies like 'Lord of the Rings'.

14. Hollywood very much influences life in America.

 

This is enough for now. However, let me point out that I am not accusing or criticizing the West here. I am merely answering to the invitation sent by a Westerner to share our beliefs (to him it myths) about the West. So here you go. I am also not saying that this doesn't happen in the East. It may or may not happen, but that is a different discussion.

 

I hope those who are going to answer are frank and honest people as I believe them to be.

 

Regards

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Salams,

 

Wow! That's a pretty good list, Sulemaan (even though some of the good points contradict the bad ones, lol). I share most of your beliefs about the West too. So let's see which ones are just myths.

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Guest Sulemaan

Assalaamalaikum,

 

It not contradiction, sister, there is always two sides to a story. And it is not always black or white. For example, the point about cops, both of the things mentioned could be true. I did use words or phrases like, "some", "considerable number", "a number" etc to avoid generalizing my opinion. :D

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Salam, brothers,

 

I agree with almost everything Sulemaan says. Still, I have one disagreement. I do not think banning prostitution and drugs is better than regulating it the way Holland has done. You don’t make things disappear simply by banning them, and the famous sentence that it is the oldest profession in the world proves it. Just like drugs, it is always going to be there. The thing is to find the most intelligent solution to the problem, the one that has the least social costs, both in terms of money and human suffering.

 

The only thing banning does is have it controlled by the mafias instead of the government, who, in my opinion, should control everything. Either Government control or mafia control. To whom should the money go? This does not mean regulating it is accepting it is good. This is the problem with believers. It is simply choosing the lesser of two evils.

 

I used to walk through the famous Red Light District when I was living in Amsterdam because it was right between my job in a diamond company and the train station, (not because of what you are thinking). I doubt there is a more peaceful prostitution district in the world. Tourists, including lone women, young or old, used to walk through the streets any time day or night, and in the two years I worked in Amsterdam I seldom saw the police around nor seemed necessary. Prostitutes have social rights like pensions when they are old. It is women’s rights, human rights, also for the sons of prostitutes. The Dutch model will sooner or later be copied. It works. At least here.

 

Prohibition, be it of prostitution, abortion or drugs does not solve the problem, it only makes it worse, as the disastrous American alcohol prohibition proved. The coffeeshops where marihuana is sold are another Dutch success. Other countries argue that tolerance makes consumption boom. Not true, at least in the Netherlands. There is less consumption here that in most other European countries, despite what people think due to the publicity Holland has from being the only country in the world where marihuana is sold. And many fewer deaths due to hard drugs.

 

The coffeeshop phenomenon is not really a Dutch thing, it is almost only Amsterdam, just like the gays, due to the concentration of thousands of gays from all over the world because they come to live in a place where they are not opressed, but respected.

 

There is only one coffeeshop in the area where I live in the North, this means 30 km around, with dozens of villages from 300 to 10.000 people, and the coffeeshop is usually empty, though they sell good (for those who smoke at home), which is understandable, of course, as it is the only one for half the province.

 

There is no open publicity, nor promotion, only tolerated. The magic word I love so much (“gedogen� in Dutch) with which this country has become the prow of the ship that is mankind. The government does not say it is good to smoke marihuana. Only that it is not a crime punishable with prison. You may have up to 5 grams or 3 or 5 plants at home (I am not sure), no more, otherwise you get a fine and in cases of illegal planting or trading in big quantities you go to jail just like in every country in the world. It is again finding the right middle way between extremes. Simple common sense.

 

Have a nice brothers. Easier with good humour. And tolerance.

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Fair post Sulamman,

 

Overall, I thought you brought up very good points that I myself wish were different about america (Canada is actually different and a lot of these could not apply to Canada, but america, pretty close)

 

I will hit on some points, though not exhaustive, as I don't want to nit pick your post because you had many valid points

 

10. Corporates devour people's hard earned money by forcing them into buyings their products. In the process they deal in every unethical business practice imagineable.

 

No one is forced to buy products. Also "every" unethical practice is downright not true. There may be some bad corps, but don't let the media fool you, there are plenty of ethical corps.

 

 

11. A number of police and law enforcement officers are racist and higher officials are often on the payroll of druglords and other crime masters.

 

A very scant number when compared to the overall population of officers. Very scant who are on payrolls. Again, the mass media feeds these stereotypes without ever reporting the good stuff people do. This only feeds america as a massively corrupt state to the world.

 

12. People value life only when it is in the West; they are apathetic to the life that is destroyed by their armies in other parts of the world. Or rather, they are too busy to worry about it.

 

Uh, remember the tsunami? How much aid did americans bring to the table. Millions, not including the governments money.

 

Americans donate millions to hundreds of charities in other parts of the world.

 

This statement is a myth.

 

13. Religion is on a decline. People find more solace in literature or hollywood movies like 'Lord of the Rings'.

 

Actually, after 9/11 religion and church attendance was on the increase. Not sure the source on your quote.

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No one is forced to buy products.  Also "every" unethical practice is downright not true.  There may be some bad corps, but don't let the media fool you, there are plenty of ethical corps. 

 

Marketing Methods brainwash people from an early age, and no Corporation is ethical - They are all unsustainable and answerable only to a select group of Stockholder's whose only interest is how much money is in their Pocket tomorrow. Chrysler for example, their famous scandal, Exxon Mobil - A Corporation which epitomizes evil, who can forget Union Carbide or United Fruit?

 

A very scant number when compared to the overall population of officers.  Very scant who are on payrolls.  Again, the mass media feeds these stereotypes without ever reporting the good stuff people do.  This only feeds america as a massively corrupt state to the world. 

 

Most studies conclude your Regulatory Bodies are the single most corrupt bodies in the industrialized World, The FDA for example, in Europe the European Union will strangle businesses if they act outside of ethical practices in order to line the CEOs pockets. Corporation's are institutions with no moral conscience. But in terms of law enforcement I have to agree, the corruption element has been over-exagerrated and it's a disservice to all the hard working cops out there.

 

Uh, remember the tsunami?  How much aid did americans bring to the table.  Millions, not including the governments money. 

 

Proportional to GDP it was a pittance. The people did give a lot but they are convinced of a false image that the US is all benevolent and totally altruistic, this means whenever America is attacked they jump to irrational reasoning for why it was attacked because in their minds they cannot possibly believe anyone other than a madman could disagree with the all benevolent US Foreign Policy.

 

Oh and Sulamman, what's wrong with Lord of the Rings? :smile:

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Salam brothers,

 

I also have to agree with Yurt’s remarks 100 %. It is easy to do generalizations or exagerations. There are all kinds of people in every country, city, street and block, and in every profession. I would like to find out the percentage of US Gross National Product that is due to US production within US and to US companies in other countries. Does anyone know? It is clear that the number or US companies operating out of US must be a very small percentage of the total of US companies.

 

And after all, I think there seems to be a "biggest power syndrome". The richest country has always been and will always be considered the prime target of critics. It is a little like a chicken-egg dilemma. Does riches buy the guns or do the guns make the riches? No doubt there is something of both, but difficult to know the ratio. I suppose it happened the same with the Spaniards, the British, etc. before. I think in 50 years or 100 years, perhaps before, if my Spanish friend in China is right, nodoby will be criticizing the US, but China.

 

Have a nice day brothers. Easier with good humour.

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. But in terms of law enforcement I have to agree, the corruption element has been over-exagerrated and it's a disservice to all the hard working cops out there.

 

 

Oh and Sulamman, what's wrong with Lord of the Rings?  :smile:

 

 

Marketing Methods brainwash people from an early age, and no Corporation is ethical - They are all unsustainable and answerable only to a select group of Stockholder's whose only interest is how much money is in their Pocket tomorrow. Chrysler for example, their famous scandal, Exxon Mobil - A Corporation which epitomizes evil, who can forget Union Carbide or United Fruit?

 

In bold is a myth and an aboslute that is NOT true. GC, your comment indicates every corp, do you even know what a corp is? You only cited "huge" corps, what about the millions of small to medium corps that truly make up america? bring evidence if you want to make such a broad and overzealous claim.

 

As to "brainwashing." Turn off the TV. Don't listen to the ads (my bro mutes all commercials) other ads, ok they are there, but "brainwashing?" Far to strong of a word. I for one know countless people that buy want they want regardless of advertisements. Please, stop with the overly broad statements.

 

Myth.

 

Most studies conclude your Regulatory Bodies are the single most corrupt bodies in the industrialized World, The FDA for example, in Europe the European Union will strangle businesses if they act outside of ethical practices in order to line the CEOs pockets. Corporation's are institutions with no moral conscience

 

"Most" studies? Who paid for the studies? What studies? You must not truly know all corporations. Especially with you last sentence. Either that, or you know only corrupt corps, hmmmm....

 

 

Proportional to GDP it was a pittance. The people did give a lot but they are convinced of a false image that the US is all benevolent and totally altruistic, this means whenever America is attacked they jump to irrational reasoning for why it was attacked because in their minds they cannot possibly believe anyone other than a madman could disagree with the all benevolent US Foreign Policy.

 

Please stop with you GDP business. Already been into with you.

 

I like how you say that we as a people did give alot, then in your very next breath you attack those very same people. Kindly be a little more objective and don't give compliments that are laced with venom.

 

No one is saying the US is ALL benevolent, however, what I was trying to clarify, is that we do care for others and do not think only about ourselves. That was the response, not how "much" benelovence US foreign policy is about, rather, what the "people" in the west give and do care about others. That was the myth I spoke to.

 

Yurt

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as salamu alaikum

 

It may be right what you have said here or what Kale had said, but in this thread, we are talking about the West and people were invited to share their views on the West, therefore I feel Kale had no right to object to such criticism. If you and Kale would like to discuss Cairo's urinated walls, then you are welcom to start another thread. :D

 

brother, my point was simply to point out that morality is 'decreasing' everywhere and not simply in the west, since Islamic countries such as egypt which i used as an example because i have been there, also carry out the immoral acts which some members were condeming of the west. the point of any subject is to discuss thats all i was simply doing. you can codemn one thing, but you must draw a omparison with something else to carry out an argument.....or at least thats my opinion.

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Guest Sulemaan
...

This is enough for now. However, let me point out that I am not accusing or criticizing the West here. I am merely answering to the invitation sent by a Westerner to share our beliefs (to him it myths) about the West. So here you go. I am also not saying that this doesn't happen in the East. It may or may not happen, but that is a different discussion.

 

I hope those who are going to answer are frank and honest people as I believe them to be.

 

Regards

 

Assalaamalaikum,

 

Good responses Yurt and Greek, but Eoin, sorry your post is removed, because you seem to have missed this part of my post, which I have quoted above. Well old chap, sorry, but I never invited your views on my religion or my country. This discussion is about the West and I was asked my opinion, so lets drop the "look what's going on in your own backyard" attitude. :biggrin: Your post was good, but you can wait till someone invites you! I have a feeling someone will...pretty soon. So see your post then (I hope you saved a copy). :smile: :D

 

Yurt, the cops part I believe, but the corporates sort of indirectly force you by advertising and advertising and advertising and advertising, it's like crazy! I mean these guys can sell ice to the eskimos! I also believe at the top level a lot of unethical practices take place, especially industrial espionage, etc, etc. HOwever, that doesn't mean all companies are like that; I think GE is known for its honesty. There's HP too with their environmental policy, and perhaps there are many, which I don't know. However, finance and oil companies are like evil beasts with an insatiable hunger for more and more.

 

As for religion, well, a lot of westerners I interact with, they seldom mention the name of God, or their religion. It is always like, "that book taught me this", "I was inspired by so and so character", "I learnt a lot from so and so", "that guitar gave me my living" (it was also song), "I feel better evertyime I see Legolas", "my friend died, he didn't deserve to die, Gandalf's words explained to me so beautifully", "if I want to my children to read something it is Harry Potter, it teaches life in such a beautful way", etc, etc, etc, etc. I mean look at these words! I don't know about you, but for a Muslim this is blasphemy!

 

Then there are those insults, open insults to God, to his prophets and there are hardly any objections. Alright, killing someone is an extreme, but staying mum is another.

 

So are my points on religion and corporates just a myth or reality? I would like to hear from other Westerners as well.

 

Regards

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Guest Sulemaan

Assalaamalaikum Sister,

 

as salamu alaikum

brother, my point was simply to point out that morality is 'decreasing' everywhere and not simply in the west, since Islamic countries such as egypt which i used as an example because i have been there, also carry out the immoral acts which some members were condeming of the west.  the point of any subject is to discuss thats all i was simply doing.  you can codemn one thing, but you must draw a omparison with something else to carry out an argument.....or at least thats my opinion.

 

I think you got it wrong. I believe what happens in the East has got nothing to do with this thread. Here, we (the Easterners/Muslims) are being invited to share our views, so that any misconceptions we may have about the West are cleared. I don't know how you clear misconceptions about the West by pointing out problems in the East. Let's say I am a martian and I have certain ideas (lets say misconceptions) about life on Earth. What do you do?

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Salam, brothers,

 

Hi, Sulemaan,

 

I agree with you partially. Let me explain. It is not simply that the west became more “evil� out of nothing and decided to become less religious or anti-religious one morning. The Christian churches are a good part of the problem. Why?

 

Childish and childlike literal interpretations of the bible made by our ignorant ancestors, and which were not updated at the view of new scientific evidence, but were stubbornly kept by the Christian churches, which sounded fine in the middle ages, sound absurd and ridiculous to the average educated modern person, and this has made modern man think religion and common sense do not go together, let alone science and religion.

 

The power abuses of churches allied to tyrants have also given religion a very bad name. Many believers have been powermaniacs, wanting to impose their opinions and beliefs on every one by force, and we had to make laws against this abuse.

 

Many religious beliefs do not belong to a modern world, not because people have turned away from the values religion teaches, except sexual morality, but because the teachings are incongruent to a modern person.

 

Take the Galileo case. It shows people have turned away not really from religion, but from a wrong interpretation of religion, one that was alright for the middle ages, but not for the modern world. The same with evolution. There are Christian parents who want their children to be taught a literal interpretation of the bible, that Allah created the world long ago in exactly 7 days, not a minute more, not a minute less, and then he “rested�, and that man made woman from a rib from Adam, etc. Many interpretations that are against science or even common sense, and that are even funny to the average modern man.

 

But unlike Muslims, who accept the Quran without questioning its logic, western man questions everything, due to the freedom of thinking provided by Luther’s reformation first and by the French Revolution and American constitution later, and by the fact that there are many multicultural, multireligious countries, so people had to learn tolerance of others.

 

Muslims are free and encouraged to discuss the Quran, but only as long as they do not disagree with scholars, otherwise they face trouble, and serious trouble. The “scholars� give them the thinking ready made. This has its logic, but in the west we have too many differences among “scholars� to accept it just like that.

 

There is a vision in Muslims that a religion person is automatically good and a non religion person automatically evil. I was taught the same by the Catholic church as a child. High above were we, the Catholics, the best, then other Christians, much lower, then non Christians, all ignorant and superstitious, and then the lowest and most evil people, atheists.

 

This is ridiculous, and a shame for believers is that in countries that are officially not religious and secular, many religious ideals and qualities like respect, tolerance, solidarity, compassion, peacefulness, friendliness, etc (except sex morality) are much higher in countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, and West Europe generally, than in other officially religious countries.

 

A person is not good of bad because of higher or lower beliefs, but because of higher or lower behaviour. Which are the two countries with the least corruption in the world? The Netherlands and Finland. Neither Muslim nor officially Christian countries.

 

The basic rule in Islam as in Christianity is want for others what you want for yourself, and this should include prostitutes, homosexuals, etc., who are considered human beings, while they have been considered “lower� human beings by religions, a little in the same way Hitler considered other races “lower� and not worthy of respect. Secular compassion is higher than religious compassion. Secular compassion grew with time. Religious compassion did not grow due to dogmas.

 

I agree we have gone too far with tolerance and freedoms in the west, too much tolerance with intolerant extremists, with sex in public media, with abuses by the media who think they have the right to slander anyone without proof, with foul language everywhere in TV, cinema, etc.,

 

But there cannot be a limit to right criticism, scrutiny and control, and that includes religion, which cannot be above the law, just like catholic priests who abuse children have been above the law for centuries. It is not WHAT you say that may be limited only HOW you say it. Respectful criticism is alright, insults are not.

 

Have a nice day, brothers, with good humour it's easier :D

Edited by Sulemaan

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Guest Sulemaan
Salam, brothers,

 

Hi, Sulemaan,

 

I agree with you partially. Let me explain.  It is not simply that the west became more “evilâ€? out of nothing and decided to become less religious or anti-religious one morning. The Christian churches are a good part of the problem. Why?

 

Hello Asking,

 

I never used the word evil. You quoted it as if you are quoting me! :smile:

 

But unlike Muslims, who accept the Quran without questioning its logic, western man questions everything, due to the freedom of thinking provided by Luther’s reformation first and by the French Revolution and American constitution later, and by the fact that there are many multicultural, multireligious countries, so people had to learn tolerance of others.

 

I should point out that here you should have said "bible" instead of "everything, because Muslims can also question everything, except the commandments of God. One of those commandments is to think and to ponder at Allah's creation. It was this commandment that helped turn towards scientific exploration which made the pioneers of modern science. Just to correct you there.

 

Muslims are free and encouraged to discuss the Quran, but only as long as they do not disagree with scholars, otherwise they face trouble, and serious trouble.  The “scholarsâ€? give them the thinking ready made. This has its logic, but in the west we have too many differences among “scholarsâ€? to accept it just like that.

 

I will not reply further to this because we will again be led to another discussion. I have already edited out your post of a few off-topic statements that would blow this discussion out of proportions. Understand that I am trying to avoid the blaming, finger-pointing, accusations, counter-accusations, etc. I am here to know whether certain things are true in the West, like I said, treat me like a martian. :smile:

 

A person is not good of bad because of higher or lower beliefs, but because of higher or lower behaviour. Which are the two countries with the least corruption in the world? The Netherlands and Finland. Neither Muslim nor officially Christian countries.

 

There is a difference between a psuedo-religous person and a religious person. A religious person (whether Christian of Muslim) will have good manners, will be kind and help the poor, he will be honest and will not run after money. And most importantly, he will fear accountability or in other words, he will fear God. This will help him stay away from committing bad or harmful deeds. And finally, he will want to make others fear God and try to save them from hellfire they are so blindly walking into, thus benefitting not only himself, his family but the society at large.

 

The basic rule in Islam as in Christianity is want for others what you want for yourself, and this should include prostitutes, homosexuals, etc., who are considered human beings, while they have been considered “lower� human beings by religions, a little in the same way Hitler considered other races “lower� and not worthy of respect. Secular compassion is higher than religious compassion. Secular compassion grew with time. Religious compassion did not grow due to dogmas.

 

...

Have a nice day, brothers, with good humour it's easier  :D

 

True compassion lies when we want to save people from burning forever, instead of trying to put a show of piety and make a name for ourself in the society. Modern societies are full of such hypocritical pomp. Not all who come to help you are your friends; not all who rebuke you are your enemies. The thing people keep forgetting is their priorities.

 

Regards

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:D

dont know if this is a myth but West is leaving thier holy book (bible) and going astray...for example bible says no homsexuality and adultery, but west is doing otherwise...

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Peace Sulemaan,

 

Eoin, sorry your post is removed, because you seem to have missed this part of my post, which I have quoted above. Well old chap, sorry, but I never invited your views on my religion or my country. This discussion is about the West and I was asked my opinion, so lets drop the "look what's going on in your own backyard" attitude.  Your post was good, but you can wait till someone invites you! I have a feeling someone will...pretty soon. So see your post then (I hope you saved a copy).

 

In that case please allow me to pose my argument in a different way :D

 

Some of your points, notably...

 

"11. A number of police and law enforcement officers are racist and higher officials are often on the payroll of druglords and other crime masters."

"12. People value life only when it is in the West; they are apathetic to the life that is destroyed by their armies in other parts of the world. Or rather, they are too busy to worry about it."

 

...are statements of fact I accept and don't seek to defend.

 

The list of 'bad' things about the west you provide and wish clarification upon contain many other truths, not myths. (Though there are several points of factual interpretation I'd like discuss in subsequent posts!) My disagreement for now is not on the statement of such facts. Instead I believe that the 'myth' about the west is that these facts can be interpreted absolutely as being bad in the first place! To quote what I consider the most obvious examples:

 

2. In general, the familial ties are not important. For example, friends are closer than brothers.

 

This is indeed no factual myth. My disagreement is that this statement of fact is described as 'bad'. My previous post (unsuccessfully) endeavoured to show that to me, a society which absolutely regards friendship ties as relatively unimportant compared to family ties is bad, because it eliminates freedom of choice to choose who one holds most dear. I wasn't trying to point out failures in your country in an absolutist sense, rather that people of different countries/cultures can see the same issue in a different light. You often see bad, where I see individual freedom of choice and hence good.

 

6. Sex among teenagers is common and acceptable. / 14. Sex outside marriage is a social norm; there is absolutely nothing wrong in it

 

My argument on this is much the same as the previous. You perceive this as 'bad' whereas I perceive it as a matter of choice for individuals, and therefore good. (Provided of course those individuals recieve their compulsory sex education and are above the age of consent, this being 16 in the UK.)

 

In this respect I don't deny the factual nature of the aforementioned statements but my intended point is that the predominant 'Myth' about the west is that the practises of others can be universally deemed good or bad, in a world filled with different beliefs and religions.

 

Regards

Eoin

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Salam, brothers,

 

Hi, Eoin,

 

When I was 18 and sexual freedom came in the sixties, teenage sex was not only "good", it was fantastc. Being a father with a teenage daughter, you see things in a different "light", as you say. Wait till you are a father, perhaps your perspective will not be exactly the same.

 

Regards

 

Asking

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Hello Eoin, Asking,

 

Good posts there Asking! You are right, age does matter and when you're young, especially just off teenage, you tend to believe that you have seen and know enough, but it is all just a learning phase. A time comes when we look back and say, "What was I thinking...?" I am talking about myself here, not Eoin.

 

Eoin, I included these things as bad, because such are considered bad by many Westerners I had the opportunity to interact with.

 

God's creations are not without purpose and those creations should not become an end in itself. After all the researches and inventions, today doctors say that abstinence is the best way to avoid STDs, especially AIDS. How is one suppose to practice abstain from a certain thing or act when he is being addicted to it since the early day of his or her adulthood.

 

Enjoyment is for relief, it should not become an obession. Unfortunately, sex in the West has become one.

 

As regards familial ties, I suggest you read 'Little Women'. When my father was working abroad, my elder brothers took care of me and they never let me feel my father's absence. I would lie to my sisters and friends, but it was so difficult lying to my brothers. I felt so guilty that once I confessed to him and cried. How could I lie to the one who gave me so much love? The love that my brothers gave can never be substituted by friends or anyone else, Alhamdulillah (All praise is for God). A family without this love is not a family at all. It is just a group of people bound forcibly to live together trying to get out as soon as they have the opportunity. And once they go out, they seldom come back.

 

Being a part of a family is a responsibility. You give back to it a part of the life it gave you. That is how one learns his sense of duty, his responsibility, loyalty and selflessness. A family, be it your father, mother, brother, sister, wife or children are your source of strength. It is to them we turn at times of trouble and distress. It is in that love that we find solace in moments of sorrow. Alas! The world seems to be running out of this love, because, again, people keep forgetting their priorities.

 

Regards

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Hallo, Sulemaan,

 

You are right, you did not mention “evil�, but in a Muslim mind, as in most Christian minds, un-religious and “evil� are pretty close.

 

He will want to make others fear God and try to save them from hellfire.

 

Right. Depending on what you mean by "make others fear God". I agree with you as long as you do not burn them here to save them and others from the fire after death. That is what the Inquisition did, they gave them two fires, one before and one after death, just to make sure they get at least one fire. Sounds like a joke.

 

That is what we try to avoid in the west with our secularism, our anti-“wrong-religion� laws, or anti “religious-abuse� laws, which are understood as anti-religion. We have freedom to follow religions, but not to impose it on others by force, consequence of our religious wars and persecutions.

 

You saw the categories I had in my mind as a catholic child, given partly by my church, partly by my culture.

 

Don’t you think Muslims have a similar range of categories? An atheist once told me that when he went to Muslim countries he said he was Christian because if he said he was atheist people looked at him as if he was the devil in person.

Do you think an atheist cannot be good? Cannot they be better than many believers, or pseudo-religious, as you say?

 

You say “pseudo-religious� instead of saying “bad-believers�. It is only a matter of names. Not every believer is automatically and necessarily better than every atheist. I though that as I child. I do not think so now.

 

Regards

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Hi Asking,

 

Hallo, Sulemaan,

 

You are right, you did not mention “evil�, but in a Muslim mind, as in most Christian minds, un-religious and “evil� are pretty close.

 

Evil is too strong a word.

 

Right. Depending on what you mean by "make others fear God". I agree with you as long as you do not burn them here to save them and others from the fire after death. That is what the Inquisition did, they gave them two fires, one before and one after death, just to make sure they get at least one fire. Sounds like a joke.

 

Make others fear God means make others realize that all their actions are being watched and one day they will be held accountable. God speaks in the Holy Quran -

 

Therefore when there comes the great overwhelming (Event)

The Day when Man shall remember (all) that he strove for

And Half-Fire shall be placed in full view for (all) to see

Then for such as had transgressed all bounds

And had preferred the life of this world

The Abode will be Hell-Fire;

Holy Quran (79:34-39)

 

And in another verse -

 

Give the warning to those in whose (hearts) is the fear that they will be brought (to judgment) before their Lord: except from Him they will have no protector nor intercessor: that they may guard (against evil).

Holy Quran (6:51)

 

And in another -

 

And verily We shall recount their whole story with knowledge for We were never absent (at any time or place).

Holy Quran (7:7)

 

Do they just wait for the final fulfillment of the event? On the day the event is finally fulfilled those who disregarded it before will say: "the apostles of our Lord did indeed bring true (tidings). Have we no intercessors now to intercede on our behalf? Or could we be sent back? Then should we behave differently from our behavior in the past." In fact they will have lost their souls and the things they invented will leave them in the lurch.

Holy Quran (7:53)

 

And the same is reminded in many more verses throughout the Quran. That is the reality and it is the duty of a person to save his fellow human from certain disaster.

 

Islam does not teach one to force religion on others and I am sure you are aware of this. We are first and foremost to set an example by our behavior. We are abviously not doing that anymore, but that is a different discussion. Then we are invite them as God says in the Quran -

 

Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance.

Holy Quran (16:125)

 

So this is basically what I mean by making others fear God. To make them realize that there is accountability which automatically turns them away from bad deeds and towards good deeds.

 

That is what we try to avoid in the west with our secularism, our anti-“wrong-religion� laws, or anti “religious-abuse� laws, which are understood as anti-religion. We have freedom to follow religions, but not to impose it on others by force, consequence of our religious wars and persecutions.

 

I think these laws over-compensate the damage done in the name of religion. The laws have to be Just, but right now, in the West, religion is being treated unjustly!

 

Do you think an atheist cannot be good? Cannot they be better than many believers, or pseudo-religious, as you say?

 

It is not for me to decide who can be "good" or "bad". Please tell me how this is related to our topic?

 

You say “pseudo-religious� instead of saying “bad-believers�....

 

Regards

 

By pseudo-religous, I mean hypocritical men who act religously in public but are in fact void of any faith and commit whatever sin that comes their way. Or people who are uneducated about their religion and do things in its name that are in actuality, contrary to their beliefs. It is such people who give religion a bad name. May God protect us from such a fate. Ameen (Amen).

 

Regards

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Salam, brothers,

 

Hi, Eoin,

 

When I was 18 and sexual freedom came in the sixties, teenage sex was not only "good", it was fantastc. Being a father with a teenage daughter, you see things in a different "light", as you say. Wait till you are a father, perhaps your perspective will not be exactly the same.

 

Regards

 

Asking

That's exactly the perspective I think from, I think to myself, when I grow up and maybe have a daughter, no way in hell is she going to start dressing like some of these (not all) english girls do. I'm not saying she has to wear a paper bag over her head but not miniskirts when she is 12 like some people do in this country! It is terrible!

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It may be right what you have said here or what Kale had said, but in this thread, we are talking about the West and people were invited to share their views on the West, therefore I feel Kale had no right to object to such criticism. If you and Kale would like to discuss Cairo's urinated walls, then you are welcom to start another thread. :D

 

Peace.

 

Sulemaan, I don't object to criticism of the West.

 

What I object to, is people Western social problems as The Western Lifestyle. My point was not "look in your own backyard before you start criticising mine." It was "If it's fair for slave to describe the discraceful behavior he sees on London's East End as 'the western lifestyle' it must be fair for me to describe the discraceful behavior of Muslim men on the streets of Cairo as 'the Muslim lifestyle'." Except, hey, that's not the Muslim lifestyle. It's a social problem that exists among Muslims. It would never stand with you if I were to describe abusing women and growing opium as 'the Muslim lifestyle.' There is nothing even remotely unfair about me objecting to someone calling promiscuity and drug abuse 'the western lifestyle.'

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Peace.

 

Sulemaan, I don't object to criticism of the West.

 

What I object to, is people Western social problems as The Western Lifestyle. My point was not "look in your own backyard before you start criticising mine." It was "If it's fair for slave to describe the discraceful behavior he sees on London's East End as 'the western lifestyle' it must be fair for me to describe the discraceful behavior of Muslim men on the streets of Cairo as 'the Muslim lifestyle'." Except, hey, that's not the Muslim lifestyle. It's a social problem that exists among Muslims. It would never stand with you if I were to describe abusing women and growing opium as 'the Muslim lifestyle.' There is nothing even remotely unfair about me objecting to someone calling promiscuity and drug abuse 'the western lifestyle.'

 

Hello Kale,

 

I get your point now, but you could have made it so much easier. You just sounded like a 9 year old arguing with her friend - "oh yeah? Well you got a garlic breath and teeth like an old-baboon!" :D

 

Anyway, like I said, the guy was invited to tell about the "myths" of the West. Well that was his Myth. That was the whole point of this thread. You could have just told him that what happens in London's East End doesn't happen throughout the West just like what happens on some streets of Cairo doesn't happen throughout the Muslim world. It is wrong to judge a people just by one or two experiences or a place just by one locality. In the end you were right, but the way said it was entirely wrong. It had the potential of turning into an ugly argument, but thankfully nobody responded.

 

Hope you are not offended at my remarks though! :D

 

Take care,

 

Regards

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Peace Asking,

 

When I was 18 and sexual freedom came in the sixties, teenage sex was not only "good", it was fantastc. Being a father with a teenage daughter, you see things in a different "light", as you say. Wait till you are a father, perhaps your perspective will not be exactly the same.

 

I'm sure what you say is true! My opinions would be markedly different under other circumstances just as yours would, but I don't believe it changes my point in any way. I'm not telling anyone how to lead their life or how to bring up their children. I merely say that the freedom of choice for those above the age of consent is in my opinion a good thing.

 

Therefore it is my opinion that the myth about the west isn't that teenage sex/sex outwith marriage happens, but instead the myth about the west is that this is necesarrily 'bad'.

 

Peace Sulemaan,

 

Eoin, I included these things as bad, because such are considered bad by many Westerners I had the opportunity to interact with.

 

See above :D

 

God's creations are not without purpose and those creations should not become an end in itself. After all the researches and inventions, today doctors say that abstinence is the best way to avoid STDs, especially AIDS.

 

Abstinence is indeed the best way to avoid STD's! However all young people are given sex education in which they are told the risks, they are told how to limit the risks, they are given practical help in the workings of contraception and all of this is compulsory and free of charge. They are well aware as I am of STD's, how they are transmitted, if and how they are treatable and sexual health clinics are free to anybody who wants to go to one for a checkup,advice or treatment.

 

In much the same way 17-25 year old males are the most likely to die in a road accident. Do you prevent males driving until they are 26? Or do you accept that at a given age people have to be given responsibility for their own actions, however reckless you believe them to be? If somebody has sex knowing the risks then they are ultimately responsible for the repurcussions.

 

How is one suppose to practice abstain from a certain thing or act when he is being addicted to it since the early day of his or her adulthood.

 

I don't think this argument works. If I considered Islam a 'bad' thing then the state should be able to prevent people saying the Shahadah until they are 30, on the basis that if they are indoctrinated at a young age they are less likely to give it up when older?

 

As regards familial ties, I suggest you read 'Little Women'. When my father was working abroad, my elder brothers took care of me and they never let me feel my father's absence. I would lie to my sisters and friends, but it was so difficult lying to my brothers. I felt so guilty that once I confessed to him and cried. How could I lie to the one who gave me so much love? The love that my brothers gave can never be substituted by friends or anyone else, Alhamdulillah (All praise is for God). A family without this love is not a family at all. It is just a group of people bound forcibly to live together trying to get out as soon as they have the opportunity. And once they go out, they seldom come back.

 

Being a part of a family is a responsibility. You give back to it a part of the life it gave you. That is how one learns his sense of duty, his responsibility, loyalty and selflessness. A family, be it your father, mother, brother, sister, wife or children are your source of strength. It is to them we turn at times of trouble and distress. It is in that love that we find solace in moments of sorrow. Alas! The world seems to be running out of this love, because, again, people keep forgetting their priorities.[/

 

I'm touched by your attachment to your family, I'm happy for you. However your 'one size fits all' attitude doesn't and needn't necesarrily apply to everyone else. There are many situations in which friends make much better companions. Once again I'm telling nobody how they should lead their life. Everybody lives in different circumstances and this should be respected.

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